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Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by jrockway on Friday February 21, 2020 @12:49PM (#22385095)
I ran into this issue on one of my builds. Aida64 has a benchmark (floating point photo or something?) that uses AVX instructions. Pressing the "run benchmark" button would instantly black-screen crash my machine with 100% certainty.

I debugged this problem over a number of years... I replaced the RAM, I replaced the motherboard, I eventually replaced the CPU... still happened no matter what I did. Even if I underclocked the machine and kept the voltages the same, instant crash. It was maddening.

Exasperated, I eventually busted out an oscilloscope and looked at the waveform on the 12V supply to the CPU. When starting the AVX benchmark, there was a huge brownout. That basically explained everything; my power supply essentially turned off when the CPU started drawing a ton of power. I replaced the power supply and got lucky -- it handled it fine and I could run the benchmark. I even got some overclock out of it.

After this whole experience, I've never looked at computers the same way again. You can buy high-spec brand-name components, and it's all just a crapshoot. Maybe your computer won't crash in the middle of an important task. Maybe it will. There isn't much you can do but cross your fingers.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by dman on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:09PM (#22385271)
If there is one thing in a computer you should not cheap out on, it is the power supply. Buy from Seasonic and buy more power supply than you currently need.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by jrockway on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:25PM (#22386374)
My bad power supply was a Corsair 1300W model (noted because others in the thread are offering them glowing praise, whereas I think they're just a nice logo on whatever is cheap this week in Shenzhen.) The working one is indeed a Seasonic ;)

I overbuy power supplies because I think, but have not tested, that it will convince them to run the fan at lower speed. This strategy has resulted in quiet, for sure, but I'm not sure that it gets you reliability.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by wtallis on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:42PM (#22386496)
> I overbuy power supplies because I think, but have not tested, that it will convince them to run the fan at lower speed. This strategy has resulted in quiet, for sure, but I'm not sure that it gets you reliability.

This theory is sound. High-end power supplies tend to not turn on the fan until reaching 30-50% of their rated maximum output. Fanless power supplies are usually internally using the same components as regular high-end models with 80-100% higher output ratings, but with larger heatsinks. A high-quality oversized power supply with a fan will be silent most of the time, but keep itself cool when necessary.

( I have a semi-passive 750W power supply that has spun up its fan exactly once, when I accidentally shorted two of its power rails together and melted some wires while burning out the PCIe slot I was measuring the power draw through. The motherboard and wires had to be replaced, but the CPU, PSU and PCIe card were all fine.)

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by AcerbicZero on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:05PM (#22386232)
This. I've had great luck with Corsair (who used to source from Seasonic) and after some of my experiences with less quality sources (Thermaltake....eww) I'll never go back.

Spending days trying to chase down an intermittent reboot just to find that your 750W PSU is actually shitting the bed around ~350W is a terribly unsatisfying journey.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by rarecoil on Saturday February 22, 2020 @02:02AM (#22389799)
this is not universally true. i bought a new 1000W seasonic prime ultra titanium for use in a hashcat rig not too long ago, and the PSU would immediately switch off when all the cards drew power to 100% (all the cards drew no more than 800W or so at load.) there is a newegg reviewer that experienced similar issues in a system with dual RTX cards. ended up buying an EVGA supply instead and that has been solid, even at 24x7 operation.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by yellowapple on Friday February 21, 2020 @07:31PM (#22388469)
I always spring for an 80+ Gold or better efficiency rating. My theory is that higher efficiencies require tighter manufacturing tolerances, which means more care has to go into manufacturing and therefore you get a better quality as a result. That theory has yet to fail me.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by abstractbarista on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:26PM (#22385436)
Is Corsair typically a reliable brand? I usually use them for desktop builds but simply out of habit.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by genocidicbunny on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:42PM (#22386082)
Corsair used to (and still might, but I haven't needed to replace my power supply in many many years) use Seasonic as their OEM. So for a long time, Corsair was just rebranded Seasonic.

These days I don't know if that's entirely true, so I would at least look at reviews to make sure.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by wtallis on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:13PM (#22386293)
I'm not sure if any of Corsair's current high-end PSUs are Seasonic; they've definitely done some that aren't. But whether they're using Seasonic or not, Corsair's fairly involved in the design process and set their own specs rather than just taking an ODM's existing design and adding their own logo. They also have a serious test lab where they do their own design validation, and I believe they also do failure analysis on returned products (since that lab's only a few rooms away from where RMAs land).
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by genocidicbunny on Saturday February 22, 2020 @12:29AM (#22389591)
I'm sure these days they're far more involved in the creation of their power supplies than they were a decade ago when I last had a need to really research any of this.

Anecdotally, Corsair has always been a top-notch company to me. Even when their products go bad, their support is awesome. I had a set of memory sticks appear to go bad, but I couldn't tell if it was my northbridge or the RAM itself. I was a cash-strapped kid, so I didn't have another machine to test with. Corsair sent out a set of known-good RAM sticks for me to test with, at completely no charge to me. When the test revealed that it was indeed the RAM that was going bad, they offered to let me keep the test sticks they sent me until my replacement came in the mail.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by kllrnohj on Friday February 21, 2020 @06:18PM (#22387994)
https://www.orionpsudb.com/corsair

The OEM for most of their PSUs is CWT, but they are "Corsair custom" designs instead of off-the-shelf. Seasonic is only used for relatively few of Corsair's models.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by genocidicbunny on Saturday February 22, 2020 @12:25AM (#22389582)
Ah, my information is a bit out of date because thanks to the quality of Corsair power supplies, I haven't actually needed to buy a new one in a long time.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by stingraycharles on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:13PM (#22385843)
Corsair is good, I have been using them for high end desktops and low end servers for quite some time.

Only one out of ~ 10 I bought ever failed on me, and that was after 2 years of no usage.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by kllrnohj on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:54PM (#22385683)
Corsair's higher end stuff is good, yes.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by zymhan on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:24PM (#22385415)
You say not to cheap out, and then recommend Seasonic. I'd say avoid a brand that was notoriously the cheapest option in recent history.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by kalenx on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:36PM (#22385523)
Some Seasonic are probably among the best consumer power supplies you can find (e.g. https://www.anandtech.com/show/11252/the-seasonic-prime-tita...)
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by ricketycricket on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:36PM (#22385525)
At the very least, Anandtech seems to rate Seasonic very highly: https://www.anandtech.com/show/11252/the-seasonic-prime-tita...
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by kllrnohj on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:59PM (#22385722)
It's not just Anandtech. All reviewers have nothing but praise for Seasonic. They have the best reputation in the industry at the moment and all their PSUs have a 10 year warranty to back it up.

Jonnyguru's last Seasonic review: https://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/07/03/seasonic-prime-ult...

Literally nothing in the bad & mediocre summary sections, and with nothing but recommendations for the entire series:

> Our look at the PRIME Ultra Titanium series has now at last come to a conclusion. We can now definitively say there’s not a bad performer in the bunch, and while all do have some very minor drawbacks I can’t see any reason not to recommend any of them.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by dispat0r on Saturday February 22, 2020 @11:26AM (#22391783)
They actually have 12 year warranty at least for the PRIME TX ones.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by tjoff on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:05PM (#22385779)
You'd be surprised to hear that part from their own brand (which is excellent) many other top tier power supplies from the best brands are actually made by Seasonic.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by Scramblejams on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:30PM (#22385460)
A lot of brands, Seasonic among them, vary from model to model. The last time I felt like I could just blindly stick with a brand was PC Power & Cooling, and they've since been absorbed by OCZ, so... ?
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by kuon on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:41PM (#22385564)
I had weird issues a few times, and it was always the power supply. Before I would never think of it as the responsible for issue, but now I always do. Each time a friend has a weird unexplainable problem with a gaming PC, I suggest to try another power supply and it always fixed the issue.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by seabrookmx on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:04PM (#22385767)
For me it's the same, but with one additional step.

Test the RAM in a known stable machine. If it passes an overnight memtest, then replace the flaky machine's PSU.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by jrockway on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:31PM (#22386416)
RAM has always been my "go to" "I bet this is it" problem, but I've debugged my own machines and other people's machines and I haven't seen bad RAM in ages.

I avoid XMP, however, and typically manually specify the voltage that is listed in the RAM's spec sheet and run at the speed that the CPU manufacturer recommends. (So the RAM might be sold as 3200 but Intel says 2400 is the max, so I run it at 2400.)

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by paol on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:50PM (#22386579)
I get your desire to be conservative here, but this is not good practice with modern CPUs. For example AMD desktop CPUs are designed with DDR4 speeds well north of 3000MHz in mind[1]. Problem is that JDEC profiles simply don't go that hight for some reason, so you you have to run with XMP profiles if you want the chip to perform as the manufacturer intended.

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/14525/amd-zen-2-microarchitec...

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by jrockway on Friday February 21, 2020 @07:40PM (#22388531)
I look at Intel ARK and use what they say the CPU is rated for. I am a couple generations behind, so not at the bleeding edge. (Haven't used an AMD CPU, but I would find their equivalent if I did.)
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by Filligree on Saturday February 22, 2020 @08:56AM (#22391023)
Keep this in mind for when you do: The first boot will be in a "failsafe" 2133MT configuration, but the fabric clock is intended to ramp all the way up to 1800MHz.

You need 3600MT to match that while keeping 1:1 sync, which means XMP unfortunately.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by wtallis on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:01PM (#22385197)
You can do a little bit to help by ensuring you shop for the right kind of high-spec: workstation rather than gaming, so that the extra money goes toward useful engineering and QA rather than RGB LEDs. But even then, it often ends up that the best you can hope for is a long warranty with a quick and easy replacement process.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by CoolGuySteve on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:14PM (#22385315)
I've had enough failed server and workstation components to believe this is snake oil. It seems like a lot of "Enterprise" hardware (particularly hard drives) is mostly the same chipset/components with a longer warranty and a more boring PCB color. Or more annoyingly, differentiated by feature lockout in some firmware.

Gaming hardware has larger economies of scale which leads to more people running the hardware and submitting RMAs. Gamers are also more likely to overvolt their hardware, leading to most consumer components being overspec'ed for heat and power.

As such, the second revision of a gaming board imo is more refined than a workstation/server board that almost never gets a new revision.

On a more practical level, consumer CPUs usually have higher clockrates and newer architectures and gaming NVidia GPUs are so much cheaper than the enterprise product lines that you can buy multiple. My workflow is faster with the cheap stuff, sometimes twice as fast.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by wtallis on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:05PM (#22386239)
To some extent, this depends on what kind of component you're talking about. I agree with what you're saying about consumer vs workstation GPUs because the price disparity is so large, but consumer GPUs don't usually get the full RGB treatment anyways.

I think you're also overestimating how big the gaming desktop components market is, and underestimating how fragmented it is. For motherboards, the economies of scale apply to the OEM custom motherboards used by Dell, HP, etc., which have far more volume than any one consumer retail motherboard model. You're probably also vastly overestimating how many gaming-oriented motherboards make it past revision 1.0. I just checked Gigabyte's top gaming product line, and out of 75 models listed, all but 8 were revision 1.0. Browsing through a similar number of their most recent mainstream consumer motherboards didn't turn up any that went beyond rev 1.0.

Some gamer-oriented motherboards are over-specced for power delivery and cooling. It's definitely common to find VRM heatsinks that are oversized gaudy sculptures, but that doesn't help product reliability. There are also tons of examples of gamer-oriented boards that advertise a large number of VRM phases, but have obvious shortcomings in their power delivery design once the heatsinks are removed and an EE takes a close look at things. And then there's the motherboard at issue here. When gamer boards are overbuilt, it's not thorough, it's usually just the most visible aspects that get beefed up (and the price).

RAM is a really obvious area where paying a bit extra for workstation-class ECC DIMMs gets you a real reliability advantage, but paying extra for high-speed consumer modules with RGB LEDs and big heatsinks does not.

RGB LEDs are still thankfully pretty uncommon on SSDs, but the handful of examples show that the impact varies from compromised performance to catastrophic instability. Most gamer-oriented SSDs with no LEDs but with flashy heatsinks also fail to outperform or outlive the best pedestrian-looking models.

Enterprise and NAS hard drives are definitely diverging from mainstream consumer hard drives in more ways than simple firmware feature gating. Some of the technologies they're using to drive density beyond consumer HDD needs have a questionable impact on reliability, but filling them with helium does help reliability, and you don't find that on a WD Black or Seagate Barracuda.

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by garaetjjte on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:46PM (#22398244)
Oh, WD Purple surveillance HDD brochures are just marketing bullshit™:

"Using AllFrame™ technology, WD Purple™ drives improve video capturing and help to reduce errors, pixelation, and video interruptions that can occur in a video recorder system."

"WD Purple 8TB, 10TB, 12TB & 14TB capacities feature AllFrame AI technology that enables not only recording up to 64 cameras, but also supports an additional 32 streams for Deep Learning analytics within the system."

"WD Purple drives with AllFrame AI technology feature a workload rating up to 360TB/year to support the Deep Learning analytics that is featured in AI capable NVRs."

https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library...

Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by Scramblejams on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:28PM (#22385448)
Good call. After learning the hard way in my youth, now when I build a machine I don't try to save money on the power supply. Instead I do a bunch of research, stick to the premium models, and I haven't regretted it.
Re:AMD Threadripper 3970X under heavy AVX2 load: Defective b... by arminiusreturns on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:58PM (#22386660)
I would say this is why burn-in has been ingrained into me as extremely important, especially target workload specific burn-in. I see way too many cots things cobbled together and then cursed for failing in some scenario that should have already been tested for (and specifically built for).