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Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by PopeDotNinja on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:01PM (#22370006)
I used to work with a brilliant chip designer who couldn't find the start button on a Windows machine. We all suck at something. Personally, I think CSS is the devil and should we should nuke it from orbit.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by neltnerb on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @07:15PM (#22371590)
True, I have a Ph.D. and am very skilled with electronics and embedded programming. If you handed me an iPhone I would have no idea how to read text messages (actual situation).

Same with the people I help technically at work. They're all brilliant scientists. They get confused by the difference between VGA, DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI. Or get extremely frustrated when a button on the UI moves.

I think software developers don't quite understand how big a deal it is to a 70 year old when the button to do something moves. Probably a quarter of my day is often just figuring out how to reconfigure things to their liking or else spend an hour retraining them because of some unnecessary UI change in Windows 10, after which they will still forget and ask for help again.

God forbid you break apart an application into multiple programs or have online activation or a license server. I think I hear at least a daily rant about how you can't just buy software anymore and now you can only rent it for a bit.

We have versions of software that are 13 years old because the publisher switched from an unlimited permanent license to a per-seat per-year license model. Rarely worth it when the instructors get confused by new software anyway.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by PopeDotNinja on Thursday February 20, 2020 @02:27AM (#22373352)
> They get confused by the difference between VGA, DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI

Back when there were RS232 (aka 9 pin) connectors on PCs, my dad's computer had two mail connectors, one CGA and one serial port (I think it was a serial port, but I'm not sure, as those connectors were usually female). I took the VGA cable and accidentally plugged it into the serial port. When I turned on the computer, I heard the startup chirping noises, the screen was black for a few seconds, and then white smoke started pouring out of the power supply. I turned it off REAL fast :) Somehow the computer still worked after that.

EDIT: changed VGA to CGA

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by anonsivalley652 on Thursday February 20, 2020 @02:43AM (#22373414)
VGA is DE-15 (3 rows), DE-9 (erroneously called DB-9) is 2 rows. ;) Interestingly, VGA only really needs 6 pins to operate: R G B VSYNC HSYNC & GND, and monochrome only needs 4.

I don't see how that's possible without really crushing it in there. Also, CGA & EGA were the same connector as serial (DE-9), which would've been easier to confuse.

It could've been worse: I knew a guy in high-school who plugged a parallel printer into a Mac classic's SCSI DB-25 (the same physical connector as a parallel port, female on the computer; DB-25 serial is a male connector on a PC) and baked it into "apple pie" with that "lovely" magic smoke aroma.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by PopeDotNinja on Thursday February 20, 2020 @03:59AM (#22373720)
Yup, you are right, it was CGA. Fixed.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by specialist on Thursday February 20, 2020 @12:09PM (#22376555)
"I think software developers don't quite understand how big a deal it is to a 70 year old when the button to do something moves."

My 84 yo mother was technically competent. Currently has mid-stage dementia. Long term recall still remains impressive. Apparently unable to learn new skills, habits.

Every software update is cleaving a few more things from her life.

My siblings and I thought upgrading her to an iPhone was a good idea, some years ago. Initially, sure. But now I wish we had a snapshot of her tech stack from her early 70s, and found a way to keep that working.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by jjav on Friday February 21, 2020 @06:32PM (#22388100)
My mother, over 90, uses the exact same arrangement which I set up in the mid 90s. Linux, mutt, emacs, fvwm customized to be very simple. Whenever hardware stops working I just need to transfer the setup to a new machine and everything remains identical.

It would've been impossible to do this with commercial software as basically nothing has a 25+ year old support life. Because everything is open source, nothing needs to change.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by megablast on Thursday February 20, 2020 @12:02AM (#22372808)
What? You can’t click on the messages icon? Can you use android? I mean, they are the same.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by neltnerb on Thursday February 20, 2020 @01:12AM (#22373069)
Yes, I use android all the time. I didn't understand how to switch between applications.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by moooo99 on Thursday February 20, 2020 @03:33AM (#22373614)
I feel the same. A friend of mine asked me to take a photo with his iPhone XR a while ago. I couldn't figure out how to launch the camera app from the lockscreen.

The gesture controls Apple implemented starting with the iPhone X are also very confusing for an Android user, eve though I also use gesture controls on my S10.

But in the end, you'd get used to it as you did with Android.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by saagarjha on Thursday February 20, 2020 @05:37AM (#22374091)
Interestingly, Google's implementation of app switching on Android looks somewhat similar to Apple's…
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by moooo99 on Thursday February 20, 2020 @07:03AM (#22374436)
It might. But the Android phone manufacturers tend to build their own interpretation of the stock Android features. The main factor that confused me on the iPhone was the lack of a back button like I'm used to on my Galaxy.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by BiteCode_dev on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:06PM (#22370054)
True. And I'm sure most devs that I mention in my comment actually get the job done. In their own way.

I have paired up with some terrible programmers, with bad coding habits, weak knowledge of their ecosystem and no capacity for any kind of architecture design, but that eventually did better than me because they worked way more, and were more persistent.

This idea that bad code will waste productivity is not that important if one person accepts to work 30 hours more than you every week, including to fix the mistakes they introduced by writing said code in the first place.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by rubber_duck on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @07:16PM (#22371593)
The level of complexity involved in developing even a basic CRUD solution these days requires knowing a tech stack going from DAL over networking, protocols to Front-end. Just getting all that shit to work and being able to reason through to get something working requires years of experience.

If you can produce something working that satisfies the requirements you can't be terrible in my book, no matter what I think of your style

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by stef25 on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @10:39PM (#22372495)
Something that works & satisfies requirements may still be terrible to maintain, expand or debug. That's the real difference between a well / badly developed app.

Agreed on the levels of complexity in basic apps nowadays.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by Vesuvium on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @04:45PM (#22370417)
Let's start a css-less tech trend, shall we? :)
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by strbean on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @05:15PM (#22370671)
All my websites are built with Unity targeting WebGL! /s
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by PopeDotNinja on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @06:45PM (#22371369)
What is this black magic? Serious question.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by com2kid on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @09:25PM (#22372211)
Unity and WebGL is pretty common now days. You'll find a good chunk of the games at https://itch.io/games/html5 use exactly that.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by strbean on Thursday February 20, 2020 @07:17PM (#22379881)
Unity supports builds targeting WebGL and WASM.

Last time I stumbled on an "io game" built this way, the lack of WASM debugging tools made it very hard to hack at the game :(

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by arminiusreturns on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @05:20PM (#22370730)
I like CSS, can we start with JS first instead?
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by AdmiralGinge on Thursday February 20, 2020 @11:48AM (#22376375)
I wonder if anyone's tried to write a language primarily for manipulating the DOM that's less... "quirky" than JavaScript? With WebAssembly being fairly well supported these days I suppose someone with a background in language design could write an interpreter in C for such a domain-specific language and target WASM.

Of course, people would say "what's the point" when JS is a thing and widely supported. I wonder if there'd be a) a compelling improvement in performance and b) a compelling improvement in reliability if we just wholesale replaced it based on lessons learned? I reckon even just keeping JS and eliminating implicit coercions would be a huge improvement (as well as maybe automatic semicolon insertion) and reduce the debugging times considerably.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by sangnoir on Thursday February 20, 2020 @12:18PM (#22376646)
> I wonder if anyone's tried to write a language primarily for manipulating the DOM that's less... "quirky" than JavaScript?

I don't know about "less quirky", but Microsoft tried with VBScript. Google tried with Dart. Initially, Dart meant to be interpreted by the browser (not transpiled to JS). I'm sure there might have been similar, smaller projects, but Javascript-in-the-browser has momentum that's hard to beat.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by dreamcompiler on Thursday February 20, 2020 @01:03PM (#22377061)
WASM cannot access the DOM. Not yet, anyway. I find this ridiculous, but that's the situation.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by PopeDotNinja on Thursday February 20, 2020 @01:44PM (#22377461)
Does Elm count?
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by Morgawr on Thursday February 20, 2020 @01:33AM (#22373136)
https://morg.systems/

I'm trying my best :D

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by earenndil on Thursday February 20, 2020 @02:33AM (#22373376)

    <link rel='stylesheet' href='res/lettercrap.css' />
    <link rel='stylesheet' href='res/style.css' />
;o
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by paganel on Thursday February 20, 2020 @07:27AM (#22374568)
> Personally, I think CSS is the devil and should we should nuke it from orbit.

In all my personal projects I just copy-paste past CSS from existing projects of mine to new ones, at most just changing two or three colors.

Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by justjash on Thursday February 20, 2020 @09:37AM (#22375333)
Yeah, had a college professor that hunt & pecked on the keyboard. He was smart and good at teaching, just terrible at typing.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by giardini on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @10:31PM (#22372465)
What? Move back to HTML 3.2?
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by lmm on Thursday February 20, 2020 @07:01AM (#22374429)
Yes. Style with inline tags, you're generating your HTML anyway. Use tag names describe what they do rather than "semantic" tags that aren't. Rather than agonising over which polyfills you need to get flexbox support, do table-based layouts that render reliably and quickly in any browser. People went crazy for the <video> tag in HTML5, but <embed> achieves the same result and a nicer UX to boot. What's not to like?
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by kalleboo on Thursday February 20, 2020 @08:08AM (#22374789)
Let's just go ahead and just render each page as one big imagemap
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by lmm on Thursday February 20, 2020 @09:01PM (#22380373)
Just the opposite. Imagemaps suck because the user can't resize their browser and have the page reflow appropriately. Too many modern styled websites view that as desirable feature.
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by kalleboo on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:24AM (#22381701)
More likely is we get one <canvas> tag and everything is powered by an opaque blob of WebAssembly
Re:Hackers Were Inside Citrix for Five Months by cm2187 on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @06:58PM (#22371476)
As for regex...