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Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by simias on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:35AM (#22297945)
That's very frustrating when arguing against blockchain/cryptocurrencies on the internet (and even in places like HN). For every blockchain enthusiast that has a good understanding of the technology and interesting arguments you have a dozen of people who have barely any understanding of how it works and what it can really do and will spew all sorts nonsense, sometimes even self-contradicting themselves in the process. I suppose that some of them argue in bad faith because they're invested in the technology and want to get rich.

This particular issue of the privacy of the blockchain is one of the best examples, I very commonly see discussions in CC circles where it's both argued that blockchain respects its user's privacy and at the same time that we shouldn't be worried about bad actors abusing an anonymous, unregulated system to fuel corruption or highly illegal stuff because "everything is public on the blockchain, it's completely transparent". I guess that's why many of them have this obsession about quantum resistance, there's clearly a state superposition at play in there somewhere.

An other favorite of mine is "what do you mean cryptocurrency is unpractical? I use it to pay everyday using <centrally operated credit card service provided by a centrally operated cryptocurrency exchange using an off-chain ledger that may or may not eventually be settled in bulk on the blockchain>". Sounds like Visa with extra steps to me.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by throw0101a on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:10AM (#22298160)
> ... you have a dozen of people who have barely any understanding of how it works and what it can really do ...

NIST has a really good document, Blockchain Technology Overview (NISTIR 8202):

* https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final

Chapter 8, Application Considerations, has a good yes/no flowchart that asks a series of question before saying "maybe Blockchain"

* Do you need a shared, consistent data store?

* Does more than one entity need to contribute data?

* Data records, once written, are never updated or deleted?

* Sensitive identifiers WILL NOT be written to the data store?

* Are the entities with write access having a hard time deciding who should be in control of the data store?

* Do you want a tamperproof log of all writes to the data store?

If the answer to any of the above questions is "no", NIST suggests something else.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by adhoc32 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @09:38AM (#22298783)
* Do you have the resources to secure the network using POW mining?

This is a big "no" for every project excluding bitcoin.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by ms4720 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:18AM (#22298206)
Any other good nist publications you recommend? IT or tech related?
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by m-watson on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:49AM (#22298415)
NIST Cybersecurity Framework is a good collection of resources.

https://www.nist.gov/cyberframework

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by throw0101a on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:53AM (#22298449)
It's worth just browsing their "SP" series and seeing what interests you:

* https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/sp

The NISTIR series also worth perusing.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by SideburnsOfDoom on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:53AM (#22298445)
> I suppose that some of them argue in bad faith because they're invested in the technology and want to get rich.

And some of them argue in what they would call good faith, for they have drunk the koolaide, want to believe, for this allows them to believe that they hold a valuable asset, were clever in getting in early, etc.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by bitcoinbutter on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:57AM (#22298473)
Yes, the people arguing that blockchain has it figured out for regular transactions are fools. Blockchain has a long way to go and many serious challenges to overcome before it can compete with payment networks like Visa.

It does a disservice to say the technology is already there, because it suggests that the current version is as good as it gets. To me, blockchain or something that incorporates its best features (decentralization, immutability) will need to process transactions for:

- Fractions of a cent - Confirm in seconds

So far that is not possible, and there is no clear way to achieve it, but with blockchain as a base there is no doubt that it will eventually be done. At that point, if you have not sacrificed decentralization or immutability, you have something truly amazing.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by Gene_Parmesan on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:42AM (#22299318)
Really, for me, before I could ever consider using Bitcoin for regular transactions, it would need to become many orders of magnitude more stable. There's no way I could ever use something as a currency replacement when its value still swings up and down by as much as 10% in a week.
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by rgallagher27 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @11:04AM (#22299481)
I don't think I could ever use Bitcoin for regular transactions, even if it became as stable as USD. As soon as someone gets your bitcoin address they can see your full transaction history and basically your net worth, there's no way anyone wants that!
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by reidjs on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @11:43AM (#22299865)
Arguably you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket, i.e., you'd split it up across many wallets. But I agree with this sentiment. Banks exist for a reason folks, holding your entire net worth in btc across a few thumb drives isn't much different than storing all your retirement funds in a shoebox IMO.
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by spookthesunset on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:09PM (#22300111)
> Arguably you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket, i.e., you'd split it up across many wallets.

Has anybody brought up how user friendly bitcoin is?

I too enjoy having to print bitcoin private keys on archival paper, wrap them in ten ziplock bags, shove that into a watertight container and bury it under the backyard bird feeder. Otherwise somebody would get my keys and take ownership of my entire net worth, leaving me destined for the poor house.

Because with bitcoin, whoever has the key owns the bitcoin.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by reidjs on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:36PM (#22301839)
That's why I brought up banks! They take care of that icky, non-user-friendly part
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by thinkmassive on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @09:22AM (#22298663)
You’re describing the Lightning Network. There’s still a lot of room for improvement before it’s suitable for non-enthusiasts, but it works and has been live for well over a year now.
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by spookthesunset on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:11PM (#22300133)
Ah yes, LN will has been poised to save bitcoin for the last decade now. The one little secret to bitcoin investors don’t want you to know! Want bitcoin to be a success? Don’t use it!

Too bad it is still vaporware.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by thinkmassive on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:08PM (#22304385)
You're either misinformed or have an agenda (based on the snark, my guess is the latter), but LN is far from vaporware...

LND 0.4-beta was released March 15, 2018. Today there are 11k nodes, 35k channels, $9,000,000 network capacity:

https://1ml.com/statistics

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by invisiblerobot on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @09:06AM (#22298539)
aren't you describing litecoin?
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by asveikau on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:31AM (#22299210)
I think this is representative of a general case of many internet subcultures with a fanatical following. In many of these communities you are deeply into thing X, all problems are always solved by more thing X. Hostility arises to any suggestion that thing X is not a solution to any given problem. Obviously this has nothing to do with how cool, interesting, or beneficial thing X may be. They just lose sight of the fact that there is not really a thing that literally solves all problems and never has any downsides.

Seen it pretty commonly on reddit for various topics.

Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by the_gastropod on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:55PM (#22300656)
I'd never connected the dots, but I think you're right. Most developer crypto zealots I know are also zealots about things like: micro services, static typing, the brave browser, and <front-end frameworks du jour>.
Re:“We already store data. In a database. It works well” by blueprint on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:31AM (#22299213)
> where it's both argued that blockchain respects its user's privacy and at the same time that we shouldn't be worried about bad actors

Bitcoin is not remotely private. Monero is.