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Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by rayiner on Sunday February 09, 2020 @09:50AM (#22282365)
Which alpha? The 21264 was introduced in 1996. It was a 4-issue out of order processor that could have 80 instructions in flight. It had 2 LSUs and could clock up to 500 MHz initially.

The Pentium Pro, released in late 1995, was a 3-way design clocking up to 200 MHz. It was surprisingly competitive. It had all the modern requirements: out of order execution, out of order memory pipeline, on board L1 and L2 caches. It just had less resources in each dimension. Intel caught up to 500 MHz in 1999, with the PIII. That was still a 3-day design. Intel’s first four way design was the Core 2 in 2006. That could hold 96 instructions in flight. Intel didn’t release a CPU with two load store units until 2011 (Sandy Bridge could do two loads per cycle) or possibly 2019 (Sunny Cove was the first that could do two stores per cycle).

Obviously, Intel caught up based on a combination of features long before then. I’d guess around early 2000s, when clock speed hit 1 GHz+. Clock for clock, the Pentium Pro wasn’t actually that much slower than Alpha on integer code. It took much longer for intel to be competitive on floating point code.

(By the way, it blows my mind that we went from 200 MHz to 1 GHz in about 4 years. Meanwhile, it’s been 15 years since my first 2 GHz+ MacBook, and a new MacBook still has a base clock around that range. Maybe it’ll turbo boost to 4 GHz for 10 seconds before it exceeds its thermal envelope.)

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by ajross on Sunday February 09, 2020 @10:13AM (#22282462)
> 200 MHz to 1 GHz in about 4 years

A 33 MHz 486 to 200 MHz was about 5 years. A 8 MHz 286 was released 7 years before that, right at the start of the uptick. Before that a MOS IC was generally capped at about 5 MHz while people slowly figured out how to shrink them and developed EDA tools that allowed designed to scale quickly across processes.

Dennard scaling was a wild ride while it lasted, but it's been done for more than a decade now.

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by jhallenworld on Sunday February 09, 2020 @10:19AM (#22282492)
Pentium Pro was really unbelievable at the time. Full Linux kernel recompile went from 15-20 minutes to less than 5 minutes. You had to use 'gcc -pipe' because the drives were then the limiting factor.

But I think it was not great on 16-bit code or something. The boost was not as impressive for DOS and Windows (still had lots of 16-bit code at the time).

I bought my Pentium Pro + motherboard and RAM at a computer show for ~$1000. This was a fairly good purchase. Around the same time I also bought an HP CD burner for around $1000- big mistake since it was slow and the prices soon plummeted.

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by octorian on Sunday February 09, 2020 @10:28AM (#22282533)
> Full Linux kernel recompile went from 15-20 minutes to less than 5 minutes.

We had a similar jump going from the 486 to the Pentium. I distinctly recall a Linux kernel compile being a 45-60 minute adventure on a 486DX2-66, but only 5 minutes on a Pentium 100. (I felt like a lot of elements of PC architecture improved together around that time as well.)

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by xxs on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:39PM (#22284165)
>45-60 minute adventure on a 486DX2-66, but only 5 minutes on a Pentium 100

Pentium was not that much faster than 486 - 486DX4-133 was faster than Pentium 90. I guess it had more memory

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by fortran77 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @11:12AM (#22282755)
People don't realize how good Intel was (and is!). Take a good look at what the latest gen Xeon or i9 can do (and its SIMD instructions which are like a separate RISC computer inside) and you'll see why they're the leader. It wasn't just strongarming vendors, etc.
Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by dingribanda on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:29PM (#22283506)
One minor quibble. Intel pushed Itaniums hard at on point. The machines were huge and I had to have additional power routed to my office to run it. Thankfully AMD introduced the x64 architecture and the PC industry was saved. Between the power consumption of the Itanium and how hard the IA64 assembly was to debug. I atleast welcomed the X64 architecture.
Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by zozbot234 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:41PM (#22283572)
IA64 assembly was "hard" because it wasn't expected to be something that humans would write or debug routinely - it was basically meant for compilers.

This also describes VLIW architectures more generally, and even more so wrt. current speculative developments like Mill, which AIUI doesn't even have a single, standardized "machine-level" assembly; what the machine runs at its lowest level is only defined by your actual chip configuration. (It is understood that GPU compute works much the same way, with the GPU driver acting as a "compiler" of sorts.)

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by zozbot234 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @11:36AM (#22282887)
StrongARM is dead anyway. Take a look at what Threadripper and EPYC can do, especially for the cost - now that's what a real leader looks like.
Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by K0SM0S on Sunday February 09, 2020 @10:24AM (#22282513)
> Maybe it’ll turbo boost to 4 GHz for 10 seconds before it exceeds its thermal envelope.)

Actually that's on Apple, the manufacturer, for choosing to undercool these chips (probably thinking that most people won't care, which I tend to agree with, but it's problematic when the machine is sold as a "Pro" device).

Anecdotal comparison, my Thinkpad sustains its 4 GHz for hours on end no problem. There's no comparing the performance of these i7 / R7 with decade-old dual cores at 2 gigs, it's just unfair.

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by rayiner on Sunday February 09, 2020 @07:07PM (#22285286)
But my point of comparison is a 2006 Macbook, which wasn’t a pro level machine and didn’t have pro level cooling.
Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by jsjohnst on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:16PM (#22284068)
> but it's problematic when the machine is sold as a "Pro" device

I’m so tired of this trope. Do you think there’s a single definition of Pro and it’s yours?

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by rbanffy on Sunday February 09, 2020 @04:47PM (#22284551)
If you sell me a "Pro" machine, I expect to be able to fully utilize all its resources for as long as I need to. While I don't need full power all the time (once or twice a month I need it for more than 10 minutes), when I need it, I'd prefer it to be available for more than a couple minutes at a time and not make my laptop sound like a hair drier and compute like an Atom laptop.

Having said that, my 15" MBP is sufficient for my needs, but I'd not recommend it for anyone doing heavy numeric lifting. Or compiling large volumes of code.

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by bbradley406 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @04:24PM (#22284411)
There's not, but in general one would guess they use the machine during their work. If a machine is expected to put in an 8-12 hour workday, whether it's a computer, car, truck, power tool or whatever, it needs to be able to handle operation at full load for extended periods of time. Adequate cooling, lubrication, duty cycles, lifespan and so forth should be considered by the manufacturer's engineers before they slap the "Pro" label on anything.
Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by nwallin on Monday February 10, 2020 @02:28PM (#22292330)
FWIW, my definition of "pro" aligns with theirs.

I expect to be able to compile moderately sized software, transcode an hour long video, render a scene in a ray tracer, etc without throttling.

I can do these things on my Dell XPS developer edition. If I'm going to spend more than $1000 on a machine, these capabilities are a minimum standard.

My $200 netbook hits thermal throttling and that's ok. It's not "pro" and it isn't meant to be.

Re:How much better was DEC Alpha than contemporary x86? by xxs on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:47PM (#22283599)
>Meanwhile, it’s been 15 years since my first 2 GHz+ MacBook, and a new MacBook still has a base clock around that range. Maybe it’ll turbo boost to 4 GHz for 10 seconds before it exceeds its thermal envelope.)

The short version is that MacBook is not designed for speed/performance but looks. It overheats by default.

2700k could reach/overclock to 4.5Ghz w/o much trouble, given proper cooling - 2011. The reason for lower base clock is the Intel TDP definition.