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Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by adaisadais on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:16AM (#22276459)
A lot of what the Mormon Church teaches is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mormonism and Christianity are two separate things much like Christianity and Judaism are separate.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by tomohawk on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:58PM (#22277219)
For example, Christians and LDS have different answers for these 3 fundamental questions:

Who is God?

LDS: God was once a man, who became a god There is more than one god, but only one god that we have to do with.

Christianity: There is only one God, who is the creator of all other things.

What happens when you die?

LDS: If you are truly evil, you will go to the bad place. If you are generally ok, you will go to the ok place. If you follow LDS teachings your whole life and perform the required temple rituals, you will eventually become a god.

Christianity: Heaven (eternity with God) or Hell (eternity without God)

What must you do to be saved?

LDS: You must perform many good works, including temple rituals.

Christianity: There is no good work you can perform that will save you. You have to trust Jesus and put your faith in Him. Good works are possible evidence that you have done this.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by tomrod on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:32PM (#22277446)
Your example covers a large plurality of Christianity but does not define the umbrella of Christianity.

For the record, Mormons consider themselves Christian, and are considered part of the Christian taxonomy. As an example, the first line of "Mormonism" wiki article says:

> Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity started by Joseph Smith in Western New York in the 1820s and 30s.[0]

More info at [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by wl on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:49PM (#22277921)
It's beyond dispute that Mormonism is derived from Christianity and considers itself to be the restored, correct form of it.

Still, I think you'd find very few theologians who would consider them to be Christian. Their beliefs are largely based on the Christian scriptures but significantly depart from the traditional form of Christianity outlined in the early creeds. And that's the point of restorationism: Everyone else got it wrong, and those differences REALLY matter to the point where God gave a new revelation to fix it.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by lcall on Sunday February 09, 2020 @12:10PM (#22283092)
I think the key difference is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't adopt the creeds (like Nicene ... in wikipedia) of the early centuries after Christ. We definitely do believe in the divinity and essential role of Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament.

For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ. I believe one can search by topics, at, for example, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference?lang=... . I have written more on what I know and how I know it, at my personal site: http://lukecall.net .

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by wl on Sunday February 09, 2020 @06:55PM (#22285226)
> We definitely do believe in the divinity and essential role of Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament.

Most Christians would disagree with the notion that Elohim and Jesus/Jehovah are two distinct beings and that this unity is found (albeit, not explicitly) in the NT. Furthermore, Jesus' role in the the Mormon Plan of Salvation is a significant departure from the soteriology people usually derive from the NT. I understand one can argue otherwise and people do (e.g. Swedenborg's soteriology), but it's an extreme minority position even among the schismatic mess that is Christianity. You can argue that the Mormon movement got these right where everyone else got it wrong because Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets were given revelation to correct the errors. Accept the truth of that or not, it's more evidence that the Mormons are something significantly different from what we'd normally call Christianity. From that perspective, perhaps the Mormon movement is the true Christianity and the rest are something else. But there is a huge difference no matter what side you take.

> For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ.

But is it the same Christ? The Mandaeans have scripture that teaches about Christ. But in these scriptures, he's evil. Islam's Quran also talks a lot about Christ. But he mostly exists to disavow doctrines about him that Islam considers heretical. And even confining ourselves to the canonical gospels, the Christ of John and the Christ of Mark are noticeably different. You can certainly argue that if the Book of Mormon is "the most correct of any book on earth" and it reveals aspects of Christ omitted from or distorted in the traditional Christian scriptures. So it's the same Christ, represented more accurately. But if you reject the Book of Mormon as inspired, it's easy to see the Mormon Christ as something else with significant differences.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by lcall on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:43PM (#22300519)
Thanks for that thoughtful and interesting comment.

I am very grateful that the Book of Mormon promises that we can find out for ourselves if it is true, if we do it His way. Then, one has independent knowledge and can use it to go forward, and increase the knowledge with more & more applied experience. :)

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by tomohawk on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:23PM (#22277777)
Two groups of people who are worshiping different gods, who have a different concept of the afterlife, and who do not agree on how life should be lived - they are in fact two different groups. It doesn't matter what one group or the other believes about themselves. This does not mean that one group or the other is bad or better.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by dehrmann on Saturday February 08, 2020 @05:16PM (#22278858)
> If you follow LDS teachings your whole life and perform the required temple rituals, you will eventually become a god.

Do I get a planet?

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by tomrod on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:21AM (#22276497)
This is true of virtually every religion under the Christian umbrella.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by adaisadais on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:27AM (#22276539)
Yes, I’m asserting that they are mutually exclusive.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by gwilliams on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:43AM (#22276642)
That could hardly be farther from the truth.

The church does have extrabiblical volumes of scripture, which also testify of Christ and go into more depth, but every doctrine of the church is in harmony with the Old and New Testaments. Members believe it is only by faith in Christ and by good works that they can be saved.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by Robin_Message on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:53AM (#22276722)
IANATheologian but I think many if not most Christian denominations teach that people are saved exclusively by faith. Works are interpreted as a sign of faith in some Protestant denominations, which lead to the concept of the Protestant work ethic.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by curiousgeorgio on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:09PM (#22276838)
IAANATheologian (I am also not a theologian), but I suppose those other Christian denominations conveniently skipped chapter 2 of James, where it says:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by Robin_Message on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:24PM (#22276955)
I think the Protestants focused on that last sentence, taking it to mean that you are saved by faith, but you can assess if someone does truly have faith by their works. So you are not saved by the works, but if you don't have works, your faith is questionable.
Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by throwaway99199 on Saturday February 08, 2020 @02:22PM (#22277761)
Ok, IAANAtheologian, but I do read a lot and believe this aligns with most Protestant doctrine (faith+grace yields salvation which yields faith which yields works), but not with LDS or Catholic doctrine which essentially teach that works yield salvation, and if you lack works, you will not be saved.

This is confusing, because there are many different passages that highlight different things. It seems easiest to look at it as a process that begins with salvation through grace and continues as you grow in faith.

You're not saved by faith alone. You do need a small amount of faith to believe in the first place, but then it is grace (the unwarranted forgiveness of your sins) that saves you, but only if you accept it and repent (reject/renounce/turn away) from your sins:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)

As you grow in faith, you will produce works, and if you do not, then your faith is dead. (the aforementioned James 2, which was really aimed at believers, not those who hadn't yet accepted Christ.)

So, it goes like this:

(little) faith -> salvation by grace -> more faith -> works

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9)

But if you die after salvation and true acceptance of your guilt and sin and repentance, you still go to Heaven, even if you are the most vile murderer on death row, because that's what grace is: completely unwarranted forgiveness.

But, if you stay alive and truly have faith, you will naturally produce works (that is, doing good things). If you don't do that, your faith is dead.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by curiousgeorgio on Saturday February 08, 2020 @07:53PM (#22279693)
Interesting. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' perspective is similar, but (in my opinion) a little more straightforward. Faith leads a person to do good works (because faith helps one understand God's love for us, and we in turn want to share that), but neither faith nor good works alone will give us salvation (we can't save ourselves, which is why Jesus Christ is the key).

Salvation requires Christ to atone for our sins, and that forgiveness and atonement is granted on the condition that our works be in line with what Christ taught. So:

Faith -> Repentance -> Baptism (+ continuing to repent and improve yourself daily through faith and good works) -> Salvation through grace.

The Book of Mormon clarifies this belief (which is consistent with the teachings of James):

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." [1]

[1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-...

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by GlenTheMachine on Saturday February 08, 2020 @10:49PM (#22280283)
Both Mormons and Protestants get this passage wrong most of the time. I don’t know about Catholics.

Entry into the earthly Kingdom of God is based on the ancient suzerainty covenant, the covenant you as a citizen of a kingdom make with the ruler. You are accepted into the kingdom by swearing “faith” (eg fealty) to the suzerain. In return you are promised the protection of the suzerain; you receive the rights of a citizen in the kingdom.

The key insight here is that the meaning of the word “faith” has changed from “to have loyalty to” to “to have belief in”.

From the moment you swear fealty (“faith”) you are a full member of the kingdom. However, if you do not fulfill the obligations of a member of the kingdom (“works”) you can absolutely get yourself kicked back out.

So:

1) you are “saved” from the moment you enter the covenant, eg express loyalty to God; and you remain saved as long as you remain in the covenant. 2) works are not optional. They are the wages required to remain in the covenant.

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by curiousgeorgio on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:02AM (#22280815)
Thanks for the insight. A lot of the difference seems to arise from a different interpretation of the word salvation. In some contexts, that does (as you mention) refer to a covenant relationship with Christ. In other contexts, salvation (as understood in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) may refer to our desired state after this life, also known as exaltation or eternal life, which is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever.

Or as John put it: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

Re:The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church by curiousgeorgio on Saturday February 08, 2020 @12:19PM (#22276914)
"A lot of what's in the SGML spec isn't in the XML spec. SGML and XML are two separate things much like XML and HTML are separate."