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Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 07, 2020 @02:28PM (#22269783)
The reason mass transit works in Manhattan is that you can have a subway train arrive every five minutes and still have it full of people. The reason you can do that is that Manhattan has more than 25 times the population density of LA County.

To fill the same subway cars in LA would require intervals more than 25 times longer, i.e. more than two hours instead of every five minutes, and then it's garbage and nobody wants to use it. Or, in practice, you only run mass transit along the most popular routes and then the majority of people can't use it because it doesn't go where they're going.

Making it less convenient to drive doesn't really fix that, all it does is make more people miserable, because you make driving worse where no viable alternative to driving is available. The only real way to fix it is to reduce sprawl so that you have more density over less area -- and that's only possible in the long-term, so in the short-term LA is pretty screwed for traffic. But that's no excuse to not be working on the long-term solution.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by egh on Friday February 07, 2020 @02:47PM (#22270064)
The density of the LA MSA is 2,744/sq mi, the New York MSA is 4,432/sq mi. The average commute in each area is only about 1 mile longer in LA (https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Srvy_Jo...) And yet, there are vastly different commute patterns. (And still over half of people in the NY MSA commute by car). It's not at all clear that density plays nearly as much a role in this as you suggest.
Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by SilasX on Friday February 07, 2020 @02:51PM (#22270112)
That's not a good baseline for comparison. The MSA you're looking at covers a much bigger area, lumping in parts with lower population density which, no surprise, don't all have subways every five minutes that the GP was referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by clairity on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:27PM (#22270543)
comparing MSAs is more apples-to-apples than comparing manhattan to LA county, which is roughly what was being done. an MSA bounds the totality of the economic reach of a city, which more-or-less coincides with the commute boundaries.

LA (the city) is relatively dense (medium-high density) compared to its cursory reputation of being low density.

but public transit here is imperfect, to be sure. it's good if you live near a train line, and not so good if you have to depend only on buses. LA metro and LADOT are trying to change that, but it's a frustratingly slow process. micro-mobility options (e-scooters, e-bikes, car share, etc.) help.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by mtalantikite on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:22PM (#22271745)
It's definitely more apples-to-apples for some statistical comparisons, but as a New Yorker it really does feel ridiculous to include Beacon and the Hamptons in to the equations when considering density for a subway system. Those places are hours away in the suburbs.

Density of city limits would maybe be more appropriate when talking about subway service or LA's light rail. So that'd be about 8,092/sq mi for LA and 28,491/sq mi for NYC. Maybe MSA would make sense for things like commuter rail, which runs something like every 20 or 30 minutes (hourly on weekends) for Metro North.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by mayneack on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:30PM (#22271174)
To some degree this is a zero sum game. Bus lanes are pretty magical in that they make the buses faster than the cars and reduce road capacity to reduce induced demand. Plus they're cheap because the infrastructure is just paint.
Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 13, 2020 @11:57AM (#22319242)
Bus lanes are hot garbage. Their mechanism of operation requires them to not actually solve the problem, because if they actually reduced traffic congestion then the buses wouldn't be faster anymore.

And "induced demand" is a misnomer. Existing congestion suppresses existing demand, which comes back when you relieve some of it. You need to find better ways to satisfy the demand, not find ways to further suppress it.

The best way to do that is to increase density, because that both makes mass transit more viable on its own terms (more frequent trains and they're still full) and decreases the number of miles people have to travel because things are close together.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by fjp on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:46PM (#22271324)
Or you could just run the subways in LA more often/not full. Then the experience would be enjoyable and living near the lines would become more desirable, and the more people take the transit and then oh look spread starts to contract a bit and your long term plan is starting to materialize!

It would be idiotic to create an LA train system designed to handle only the amount of people that will busing it within the first year.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 13, 2020 @12:19PM (#22319448)
Operating mass transit when it isn't full serves no purpose. The entire point of mass transit is that it's more efficient than cars when it's full -- when it's not full it's less efficient. A bus carrying the same number of people as a car takes up more space and uses more fuel, and requires a driver which makes it dramatically more expensive when amortized over that number of people.

> It would be idiotic to create an LA train system designed to handle only the amount of people that will busing it within the first year.

Of course you do. Trains replace buses in the places with enough density to justify them. You don't build a train in a place that would only see it half full, you just run a bus there which holds half as many people.

The problem is most of these places can't even fill a bus every ten minutes because everything is so spread out. You need more taller buildings first.

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by machello13 on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:23PM (#22270494)
Why is it a requirement to fill every car? Why not provide transit along many routes and often enough to be useful?
Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by HashHishBang on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:36PM (#22270621)
Money presumably. The fact that it's comically expensive in per mile costs, in some cases nearly $1 billion/mile[1] in LA, in addition to maintenance costs would just nuke the ideas.

[1]https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-ex...

Re:LA’s new trains have not lessened the time spent stuck in... by GrayTextIsTruth on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:50PM (#22271990)
you could increase train frequency during rush hour. One every 5 minute between 7-9am and 4-6pm.