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Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by marriedWpt on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:28AM (#22256674)
Can we call it a cartel market instead of private markets?

The various healthcare leaders use their wealth to strengthen their position through laws.

Most sectors cannot operate like US medical, they are their own beast.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by TeMPOraL on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:32AM (#22256726)
> The various healthcare leaders use their wealth to strengthen their position through laws.

Everyone who can does that. Laws and politics aren't a separate magisterium from business; there are no hard borders here.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by SkyBelow on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:19AM (#22257261)
There is one difference: violence. Laws are enforced on threat of violence. A business cannot force you to follow their procedures, at most they can deny you business. If I start selling drugs I import at a cheaper price, the government will use violence to stop me (including potential enslavement for a few years).

That one difference is all that matters.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by TeMPOraL on Thursday February 06, 2020 @02:02PM (#22259106)
That's a difference, yes, but orthogonal to the topic.

As a businessman, as much as you can direct the behavior of both your customers and your employees, you can influence the lawmakers. After all, they too want money or things that money can buy.

Violence is just one side of the coin that is power. The other side is voluntary (or technically voluntary but not quite) participation, which is primarily controlled by money. That's what makes politics and markets intertwined.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by claudeganon on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:44AM (#22257547)
Then healthcare shouldn’t be a business because the natural result of refusing to provide it to those in need is injury and possibly death. That seems a greater and more imminent threat that people in the US face than most forms of state violence.
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by cwzwarich on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:33AM (#22256731)
Isn't it natural to want to only "sell" to "customers" that are profitable? This is a natural function of other markets.
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by jschwartzi on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:14AM (#22257196)
It's also pretty natural to not want to die because of an error on your credit report. Imagine, for a moment, that some other cwzwarich filed for bankruptcy a few years ago. By some (incredibly common) mistake, their bankruptcy ends up on your credit report. And you go in to the Emergency Room with a potentially life-threatening injury.

The doctor runs credit on you before providing treatment, and because of this erroneous bankruptcy that you may not even know about(credit reports can only be reviewed once per year), you are placed in the hallway instead of being given a private bay despite the increased risk of infection. The hospital wanted to make room for paying customers, you see.

So while it's natural to want to "sell" to "profitable customers" in this case applying free market principals to this makes a complete mockery of our health care system. And given the credit bureaus' track records of high inaccuracy and difficulty in disputing the reports, you're likely to get poorer treatment inexplicably, and entirely by accident.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by pfarrell on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:03AM (#22257060)
Is there anything that shouldn’t be treated like a market?

Street lights? Police and Fire protection? Water access?

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by cwzwarich on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:45AM (#22257572)
I don't think that health care (or the things you mention) should be treated as a market. I was only responding to the claim that this is a "cartel market" and not basic market behavior.
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by pfarrell on Thursday February 06, 2020 @01:44PM (#22258899)
Gotcha. I've asked myself those questions to probe my feelings. I think things are going to get pretty ugly as the US starts to grapple with this again.
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by Analemma_ on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:35AM (#22256750)
Which law specifically permitted this behavior, and under what laws was it illegal before that?
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by Joe-Z on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:44AM (#22256827)
Maybe finding new ways for the market isn't the best approach. What about publicly shaming the people who profit off of this?

I remember there was a big outrage about Martin Shkreli's actions. Meanwhile the CEOs of these companies probably get lauded in business magazines.

Calling these miserable, greedy, selfish bastards out for what they are could be a first step. God, how I'm hoping for a socialist revolution to take place within my lifetime...

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by HarryHirsch on Thursday February 06, 2020 @10:54AM (#22256948)
What about publicly shaming the people who profit off of this?

We've seen that this is something that absolutely doesn't work. They (that's the people who matter) just find a scapegoat and everyone else carries on just as before. Shkreli ended up in prison, but Valeant is still busy making profit off the backs of patients, and despite Hillary Clinton's professed outrage prices for such drugs as Syprine haven't gone down a penny. Netflix has a documentary on the case.

Where is the revolution? Where is single-payer healthcare?

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by magduf on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:05PM (#22257828)
Americans don't want single-payer healthcare. If they did, they'd be voting for it. Instead, they (especially poor, rural voters) strongly vote for the party that says they're keeping "socialism" out of healthcare.

Americans are getting exactly what they voted for.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by ralusek on Thursday February 06, 2020 @11:34AM (#22257428)
A socialist revolution? Do you mean that you'd like the US to become more like Sweden, a social democracy? Because it bears repeating, there is not a single desirable place to live on Earth that is not primarily governed by free market forces, including Sweden. Sweden, Norway, Canada...these are not socialist states.

Also, let's be clear about one more thing. Martin Shkreli is not a free market capitalist, he's a crony. Leveraging state patent systems to create abusive monopolies is not free market capitalism, that is textbook crony capitalism and the enemy of a free market. Without arbitrary state enforcement of medical patents on insulin and epipens, do you think that these would be exceedingly expensive items? Are you being bankrupted by Benadryl? Hardly.

There are absolutely elements of healthcare that are far better serviced by a command economy than a free market, and I think the weird hybrid system in the US is the worst of both worlds in many such cases. But a socialist revolution? Socialism is an authoritarian nightmare that cannot suitably answer any question related to scarcity or competence.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by magduf on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:09PM (#22257862)
The thing you're missing about "free market capitalism" is that, in the USA today, our "free market capitalism" absolutely does include state patent systems leveraged to create abusive monopolies. You might call it "crony capitalism", and you claim that it's not "true" "free market capitalism" (which sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy to me), but the fact is, one of two major political parties in this country does say that what we have now, and what they want to retain, is "free market capitalism".

As for "socialism", again you're disagreeing on definitions. To most Americans, Sweden, Norway, Canada, etc. are "socialist".

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by ralusek on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:18PM (#22257971)
Almost no product that you use is subject to abusive state monopolies, which is why almost every product you use is competitively priced. So no, free market capitalism is not indistinguishable from crony capitalism.

As far as definitions go, my definition of "socialism" is actual socialism, not social democracy. This quote is overused at this point, but Danish PM Rasmussen explicitly clarifies "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy." Adding central planning to ameliorate some of the rough edges of market economies does not create a socialist state.

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by magduf on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:30PM (#22258102)
>As far as definitions go, my definition of "socialism" is actual socialism, not social democracy.

Again, most Americans will disagree with you. The definition of a word is whatever most people agree it is.

>This quote is overused at this point, but Danish PM Rasmussen explicitly clarifies

No one in Denmark has any authority to define a word in the English language as used by Americans.

>Adding central planning to ameliorate some of the rough edges of market economies does not create a socialist state.

According to Americans, it absolutely does.

>So no, free market capitalism is not indistinguishable from crony capitalism.

Again, according to many Americans it is.

Here's a challenge for you: pick out 100 different rural counties across America. Go to each county, and take a poll, asking them, "Is Denmark a socialist country?" I guarantee you that a clear majority of those polled will answer "yes".

Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by ralusek on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:49PM (#22258295)
If this conversation is now between whether "socialism" means "socialism" or "social democracy" to you, I actually don't care. As long as you are not advocating for a revolution that results in actual socialism, then I have no problem with you.
Re:Your New Medical Credit Score Could Deny You Care by magduf on Thursday February 06, 2020 @12:55PM (#22258358)
I'm not advocating for anything. All I'm doing is attempting to point out that it's really hard to have a rational discussion about something when people can't agree on basic concepts and definitions. And the problem in America now is this: we can't even agree on what "socialism" is, or whether we want it or not.

Just try having a conversation with the average American voter (esp. in rural districts) about "socialism" vs. "social democracy" vs. whatever, and see how far you get. They're probably going to say Denmark is "socialist" because they saw it on Fox News. But these are the people electing the leadership here (or about half of it anyway). We have two "sides", and even many on your side probably would have a hard time with these concepts. It's no wonder things are so broken here, and I don't see how it can get better any time soon when the two sides can't even have a rational discussion because they can't even agree on basic language or concepts.