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Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by pdimitar on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @10:57AM (#22181889)
Well, that in my eyes is a very solid advertising in favour of ProtonMail.

And it's not like Russians, Chinese and generally people in countries whose governments are in the habit of censoring the internet aren't used to using Tor and/or VPNs to dodge censorship.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by 45ure on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:56AM (#22182759)
>Well, that in my eyes is a very solid advertising in favour of ProtonMail.

In context of 5/9/14+ eyes, the nomenclature of solid advertising might differ from your interpretation, where perceptions matter ─ ranging from honeypots, compromised Tor exit nodes to dubious VPN providers, absence of warrant canaries to flawed encryption products etc. It is probably best to exercise caution and remain sceptical, rather than start endorsing products, based solely on a single random event.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by pdimitar on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:25PM (#22183180)
We all work with incomplete information and we have to deal with that every day. Your comment to me reads like "you can be killed by a micro-meteorite if you go out so stay in an underground bunker".

Of course there are flawed VPNs and honeypot Tor nodes out there. The fight to track people and censor information is ongoing 24/7 around the globe.

Random event or not, if a government feels that it has to plug a leak as opposed to pwning/backdooring it then to me this means they chose the lesser evil and they really cannot crack ProtonMail. If that's indeed the case then this sends the message to me that I'd like my email to be better protected and I might switch away from GMail.

Whether there is a bigger game involved though, I can't know. Can you?

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by 45ure on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:59PM (#22183676)
>if a government feels that it has to plug a leak instead of pwn it then to me this means they chose the lesser evil and they really cannot crack ProtonMail.

The government does not need to tell you anything and when it says it can't 'break' something, try and remember ─ you can dance like nobody is watching, but make sure you encrypt like everybody is watching.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by C14L on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:37PM (#22186122)
There is ProtonVPN. Proton is based on Switzerland, so no N eyes interference there. At least not via a legal route.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by beatgammit on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @08:07PM (#22187965)
You still have to worry about Swiss intelligence. That being said, ProtonMail is a fine product and I'm happy to be a customer.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by utxaa on Thursday January 30, 2020 @09:38AM (#22191542)
wow, you are one eloquent writer. i just like reading your comments for the structure of the prose.

write something!

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by Jerry2 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @11:34AM (#22182408)
> Well, that in my eyes is a very solid advertising in favour of ProtonMail.

... if you live in Russia.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by throwawaylolx on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:14PM (#22183018)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted: just because ProtonMail allegedly refused to cooperate with Russia, it doesn't mean they must act similarly when the request comes from a nation that can leverege more diplomatic pressure.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by thinkloop on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:49PM (#22183544)
Yes, but if Russia can't crack it, and needs to go the diplomatic route, that's a good attribute for your privacy software to have regardless of where you live.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by aksll on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:38PM (#22183363)
Protonmail threads on HN are always highly censored.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by C14L on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:40PM (#22186141)
They are in Switzerland and Swiss judges are pretty independent.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by ymolodtsov on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:38PM (#22186129)
The thing is, it’s different from, let’s say, them blocking LinkedIn. VPN won’t solve for any Russian mail service.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by d0mine on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:02PM (#22183721)
I would be very surprised if certain agencies wouldn't have a nice search box for any content on ProtonMail (as it is for Gmail, etc if we believe Snowden).

Remember Lavabit.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by redis_mlc on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:38PM (#22184897)
> if we believe Snowden

You don't have to believe him.

Google engineers have admitted in print that their inter-DC links were not encrypted.

Marissa Mayer admitted in print that she allowed the government to install a linux kernel module to sniff email traffic for keywords, among other things.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:40PM (#22184926)
> Google engineers have admitted in print that their inter-DC links were not encrypted.

Didn't Google qua Google, not mere engineers, do that by publicly announcing that they were upgrading security by encrypting them in the wake of the Snowden leaks?

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by joering2 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:18PM (#22183942)
The difference was that number one Lavabit was made by a US citizen, and its servers were in the USA. Number two, Lavabit kept all keys to your email at their own premises and could de-crypt your email on their side. Protonmail cannot do so, because your password is a part of they key to decrypt email, and they do not know it, nor they can crack it in a reasonable amount of time, so AFAIK there is nothing they can provide LE with to decrypt your email on the go.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by danenania on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:10PM (#22184593)
If you access ProtonMail via their web app, all that's needed to steal your password and decrypt email at will is a few quick changes to the index.html they serve you. This could be targeted to specific users, and once the password is exfiltrated, the page can be reloaded, leaving no trace of the attack. Anyone with access to ProtonMail's back end code or infrastructure could do this. So at least in the case of their web app, they could absolutely provide LE with whatever they wanted in a way that would be quite difficult for the average user to detect.

I don't know whether their mobile apps also trust the server in the same way--by loading content or js from the server. If not, then those could potentially offer a more secure alternative since the same attack would now require an update for all users, which would leave evidence behind. Of course, you still have to trust that any users you're sending email to also never submit their passwords to the web app.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by desktop-app on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:49AM (#22190710)
> If you access ProtonMail via their web app, all that's needed to steal your password and decrypt email at will is a few quick changes to the index.html they serve you. This could be targeted to specific users, and once the password is exfiltrated, the page can be reloaded, leaving no trace of the attack. Anyone with access to ProtonMail's back end code or infrastructure could do this. So at least in the case of their web app, they could absolutely provide LE with whatever they wanted in a way that would be quite difficult for the average user to detect.

There is no such issue if you use https://github.com/vladimiry/ElectronMail desktop app as it comes with static resources built on the CI server from the official source code repositories and embedded in then installation packages, see https://github.com/vladimiry/ElectronMail/issues/79 for details. See here https://github.com/vladimiry/ElectronMail/blob/d974b43908e10... the "ProtonMail Version 4.0-beta Web UI" versions embedded in the most recent v4.2.1 release.

The way of verifying that the installation packages attached to the releases have been assembled from the source code is being provided, see https://github.com/vladimiry/ElectronMail/issues/183.

And finally, the app is fully open-source creature, so anyone could assembly own package.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by whoo on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:53PM (#22184387)
Have you considered how proton mail filters spam? It has to be stored in memory for this to happen before it's encrypted and flushed to the disk.

Unless your emails are encrypted for you on someone else's client before they're sent to your protonmail, in which case protonmail still has all of the metadata (time sent, where it was sent from, length of the message, etc.)

Do you believe proton mail can keep state level actors like Russia, China, and the United States out of their prod infra?

They may be "mostly" subpoena proof as in they can't disclose old emails, but do you trust them to not hand over your data before it's encrypted?

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by ebcode on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @03:11PM (#22185263)
Do you use protonmail? I do, and I'm finding it actually refreshing to see spam and phishing emails in my inbox. At first I thought, why aren't they blocking this? Then I realized, "oh right, that's because they aren't reading it".

> Do you believe proton mail can keep state level actors like Russia, China, and the United States out of their prod infra?

No, I don't believe they'll be able to keep state actors out of their servers indefinitely. But it's more a matter of what the state actors find once they've gained access. As I understand it, the architecture of the service is what prevents protonmail themselves, as well as any intruder, from reading the encrypted mail files[0].

[0] https://protonmail.com/security-details

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by als0 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:00PM (#22184484)
As long as you don't control the JavaScript that handles your keys, they can do whatever they like.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by joering2 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:24PM (#22186002)
I actually do. I don't use their app, only the website. Their JS files are served from my own webserver so I do know their content. Besides, nothing stops someone super-paranoid to check the JS code upon login before they put their password in.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by desktop-app on Thursday January 30, 2020 @06:52AM (#22190720)
This case has been handled in ElectronMail. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22190710 for details.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by antpls on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:51PM (#22184368)
> Protonmail cannot do so, because your password is a part of they key to decrypt email, and they do not know it, nor they can crack it in a reasonable amount of time, so AFAIK there is nothing they can provide LE with to decrypt your email on the go.

I don't think this is true. A hash of the password could be part of the key, but Protonmail already has that hash stored on its server (otherwise they would not be able to log you in when you send the password hash). If Protonmail would like to access your emails (or be asked to do so), I'm confident that they technically can. The only benefit is when a hacker get access to the email database, but not the password hash database, then in this case the hacker cannot read the emails.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by Koshkin on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:41PM (#22184934)
> A hash of the password could be part of the key

Except when it's not (and the full password is used instead).

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by antpls on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:12PM (#22185883)
After looking at the doc, it seems Protonmail uses GPG and computes the keys on the client device. (So I was wrong in my reply earlier).

However, when you send an unencrypted email with Protonmail, they claim that they encrypt the email at rest, but the claim is not verifiable.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by C14L on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @04:41PM (#22186160)
Under Swiss law, there is no "national security letter" equivalent.

Also, mailboxes are encrypted client side.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by kome on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:11PM (#22182983)
Telegram is blocked in Russia, but WhatsApp still works. Why?
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by orthoxerox on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:08PM (#22184568)
Telegram still works as well. It's technically banned, but works thanks to its blocking countermeasures.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by Nasreddin_Hodja on Thursday January 30, 2020 @12:49AM (#22189158)
> It's technically banned, but works thanks to its blocking countermeasures.

Mobile version only. You have to use proxy or VPN for desktop or web app.

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by another_kel on Friday January 31, 2020 @10:06AM (#22202203)
You have to use vpn to access the website which contains the web version but only desktop installer. The app itself works just fine. Futhermore it can be downloaded from W10 or OSX app store with the only limitation being lack of autostart.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by demosito666 on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @02:13PM (#22184623)
Telegram works just fine and is only becoming more popular.
Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by floatboth on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @01:52PM (#22184380)
It's way too popular, too many people would get angry.

Telegram was just the right size — not so tiny that only a few nerds use it, but not so big that the majority of normies have adopted it. And there was sort of a personal conflict, government people don't like Pavel Durov..

Re:Russia blocks ProtonMail by anticensor on Wednesday January 29, 2020 @12:20PM (#22183118)
They lack the necessary computational power to look at the messages and store them in plain text.