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Re:The Positive Side of Shame by rayiner on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:27PM (#22173143)
> Sure, shame works (otherwise who would care to use it?). But it is a dangerous weapon. When people stop doing something because of shame, it's not that they change their minds. It's because they were (or are afraid of being) humiliated.

That's not really true, and the article addresses that point directly: "Fourth, 'The transgressor should be sensitive to the source of shaming.' The shamee must consider themselves subject to the same social norms as the shamer."

If you're someone who jaywalks because you think laws a against jaywalking are a product of Big Auto lobbying, you're not going to be shamed into using the crosswalk. Shame works for things where people know its wrong, but do it anyway because they think their transgression won't be publicized. Shaming people for littering, for example, reinforces what everyone already knows is wrong. It doesn't change minds per se, but reinforces a social norm, and that's a very good thing.

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by taurath on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @02:35PM (#22173219)
I'd just say that while those who litter usually do so only in situation they believe they can get away with it, they frequently litter because they don't identify as being a part of or responsible to or for the community they're dumping in. In much the same way that the jaywalker is against laws against jaywalking, the litterer doesn't see the point in keeping clean an environment that is uncaring and violent towards them.

So in this case, its a lot more often that the transgressor isn't sensitive to the source of shaming. Take a look around at who leaves their trays in fast food restaurants around for others to pick up - its disaffected people, small kids, punks, and out of touch old people who are cynical and nasty about society. About the only people who respond to "shaming" about it are the people who do it due to being completely overwhelmed, like a parent wrangling 3 crying kids around and doesn't even have a free hand, and they're the ones least likely to really be able to respond to it.

Re:The Positive Side of Shame by clairity on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:19PM (#22174723)
it's the dying that usually keeps people from jaywalking, not shame or even the law. reasonable folks (people who are neither blind rule-followers or needlessly reckless) have no problems "jaywalking" when an accident is practically impossible (cars are absent or far away).

in my experience, littering (and public urination/defecation by non-homeless people) almost seem like acts of aggression or defiance by the transgressors. i've rarely gotten anything but anger in return for speaking up about it. it seems to defy shame intentionally, rather than succumb to scoial norming.