News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by chrisseaton on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:26PM (#22123190)
> I doubt this is uncommon

I've never seen any animal in an aircraft cabin, and I fly a fair bit. How does it work even when it is completely legitimate? Do you just ask the animal politely not to go to the toilet for 12 hours or however long? What if they have an accident? How on earth do you clean that up and deal the smell in a cramped space?

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by amluto on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:38PM (#22123257)
Genuine service animals are extremely well behaved. The training is no joke, and a large fraction of the animals fail out. It’s likely that you’ve been on a plane with a service animal and not noticed. Service animals can contentedly sit or lie down silently for hours without attracting attention. They know when they are on the job and they behave accordingly.

As for very long flights, I imagine that a service dog can do its business in a small bag or box. Also, a well trained animal will pee or poop on command before a flight and can go for quite a while without peeing or pooping.

It could make sense to require accredited training programs for service animals. Poorly behaved “service” animals are a problem for those who need real service animals.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by ufo on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:55PM (#22123380)
In the particular case of guide dogs fir the blind, having the dog poop on command is also what lets the owner know where the poop is, so it can be properly disposed of.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by Kalium on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:42PM (#22123277)
I believe service animal training is already accredited. The issue here is that businesses are in the habit of trusting the "Service Animal" labeling and not checking if it's genuine or someone's ESA.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by morpheuskafka on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:42PM (#22124349)
There are three things you can ask under ADA (which does not allow ESA, and appears to be what you are talking about, FHA and ACAA have different rules):

0. Is this a dog or miniature horse? (only those animals are considered as potential service animals under ADA)

1. Is this a service dog within the definition of the ADA, i.e. has it been trained to perform a specific tasks to mitigate a disability? (cannot ask what the disability is)

2. What specific tasks is it trained to perform? (ex. seizure response, seeing eye, etc.)

However, there is no way for you to "check" if this is true. Service animals need not be trained by any approved company or carry any identification, and you cannot ask about this. The only way out is if someone admits to it not meeting the legal definition or gets caught in a lie while answering these questions.

If, after all that, the animal cannot be reasonably accommodated as it is not being housebroken, being vicious or harmful, damaging property, or making an unreasonable and excessive amount of noise, it can still get shown the door. Likewise, if allowing an animal is inappropriate under any circumstance for safety or regulatory reasons (ex. cleanroom, food service, nuclear exposure, hearing damage potential, etc), you need not allow it. The establishment owner is never responsible for feeding or looking after the dog or procuring one for the person with disabilities. You can expect that service animals be kept on lease unless brief exceptions are critical to job function.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by astura on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:06PM (#22123455)
There's no accreditation for service animals. The Americans with Disabilities Act does not require that a service dog be professionally trained or certified, you can even train a dog yourself and (legally) call it a service animal. It's a wild west and some people end up paying thousands of dollars for dogs that aren't even socialized or house trained.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/03/lawless-world-of-service-dogs-...

Even the federal government gets ripped off

http://archive.is/k2JQk

>The legislation appeared to be a victory for service-dog advocates, but the study almost immediately encountered problems. The V.A. initially partnered with vendors whose poorly trained animals introduced unexpected complications. ... “We relied upon the organizations themselves, all of which professed to be very experienced and to be able to produce high-quality dogs, and unfortunately that did not turn out to be true,” Fallon told lawmakers in a 2016 congressional hearing. “We were not familiar enough with the service-dog community when we embarked on the pilot study. There’s no question that we’ve made mistakes

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by silencio on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:52PM (#22123348)
there are some reputable training schools (like guide dogs for the blind and canine companions for independence), but there is no real accreditation. there's maybe organizations like assistance dogs international, that hold member schools to standards, but not much beyond that.

the ada explicitly doesn't allow any kind of request for documentation or certification either. basically you just have to take people at face value when you ask them if the animal is required because of a disability. and lots of people with ESAs are okay being very casual about that.

(and the reason i can figure out why people with ESAs are okay with bending the truth compared to a trained service animal, is because they tend to be the ones that are VERY upset in two situations that are legal: the one where i negotiate different accommodations because i'm very allergic to dog dander, and the one where they get upset that a misbehaving ESA is being asked to leave the premises. having been around dozens of trained service animals - i've never seen one misbehave the way ESAs can, and everyone is happy with my suggestions due to my allergy since i go above and beyond, rather than making things more difficult.)

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:57PM (#22123396)
Businesses are not allowed to ask for proof if an animal is a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

If someone does have some type of certification, I assume it’s they’re fraudulently claiming it’s a service animal.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by sjs382 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:51AM (#22129123)
There are questions that can be asked if you suspect that someone is abusing the system. THey'll only work if the person is unprepared, though:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22124349

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by reaperducer on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:01PM (#22123419)
The issue here is that businesses are in the habit of trusting the "Service Animal" labeling and not checking if it's genuine or someone's ESA.

Because they're afraid of lawsuits, or worse — being tarred and feathered on social media.

Yet another part of society that social media has made worse.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:25PM (#22123587)
See the other 5 replies with links to ADA website showing its federal law to not be able to require proof of service animal.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by drewmol on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:55PM (#22123382)
I looked into this last year and found no federally recognized accreditation of service animals. The ADA prohibits discrimination against them, which in turn creates a potential legal liability for businesses who deny them, whatever them is...
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by milsorgen on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:21PM (#22123556)
Your not allowed to ask for documentation: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by topkai22 on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:26PM (#22124280)
I used to fly with my dog occasionally, and I followed all the rules: 1) Required to bring a recent veterinary certificate of health 2) Pay $75-125 to bring the animal on. 3) Demonstrate the animal weighs less then 20 lbs. 4) Demonstrate the animal can fit in a soft sided crate that fits underneath an aircraft seat 5) give up having a personal item 6) keep the animal crated underneath the seat in front of you.

My dog never did his business on a flight (we never flew more than 6h and he was used to staying home way longer then that), but I had baggies ready to go.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by reaperducer on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:00PM (#22123413)
How does it work even when it is completely legitimate

I've done it with cats. They were required by the airline to have a health certificate from a vet stating that they were healthy enough to fly, to be kept in their container at all times, and I had to pay a fee. I think it was $200 last time.

The vet also supplies tranquilizers to give the animal just before the flight. That keeps it calm and helps prevent it from needing to use the litter box.

Coast-to-coast isn't a problem. 12 hours? Animals shouldn't fly intercontinental. There's simply no reason for it.

At one time you could mail a cat. I mailed one from Charleston to New York using Delta's package service. The fee was less because it went into the cargo hold, but it still needed documentation from the vet. I don't know if that's still allowed.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by m463 on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:26PM (#22124283)
> The fee was less because it went into the cargo hold

This kills pets all the time due to low temperature. Source: friend who used to work for the airlines.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by jstarfish on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:50PM (#22129818)
There was a high-profile incident a few years ago where a contender for "world's largest rabbit" died in the cargo hold. Happens to stowaways too.

As much of an annoyance as animals in the cabin are, the cargo hold is not conducive to supporting mammalian life.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by TazeTSchnitzel on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:35PM (#22130969)
Could you put them in a special temperature-regulating box? But that would be bulky and perhaps cruel…
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by joegahona on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:49PM (#22131108)
I'd never put my dog in a cargo hold, hence he will probably never fly. What if airlines offered flights for dog owners only, or people who would tolerate dogs? I'd gladly pay 2x to 3x to fly with my dog.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by manigandham on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:41AM (#22125134)
> "Animals shouldn't fly intercontinental. There's simply no reason for it."

People travel and move with their pets all the time. There are procedures for transporting them, including flying separately on cargo flights.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by diN0bot on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:56PM (#22124422)
i was once delayed because a dog on the arriving plane made such a mess that they needed to clean three rows of seats. they had to bring in a new plane for us because that one required specialized cleaning. “there was shit everywhere” kind of thing.

i can’t look at dogs on plane the same way after that. must have been terrifying for the dog, and disgusting for the people.

ps - i’ve seen a toddler with poop riding up his back on a plane, too. mom had her hands full with three kids! ive been an obsessed loving dog owner myself, but i don’t like how people try to compare dogs to babies and toddlers. i think it’s demeaning to the “small person”.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by kelnos on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:32PM (#22123223)
I'm reminded of a recent flight I took where I was in the last seat of first class (yay upgrade!) and, right behind me, in the bulkhead economy seat, there was a not-small, long-haired dog (40-50 lbs maybe?) just lying on the floor in front of the owner's seat, not restrained in any way.

It wasn't an excessively long flight (~5 hours), but still, not sure how they could ensure the dog wouldn't need to go to the bathroom in that time.

I'm mildly allergic... it was not a pleasant flight for me at all.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by Marsymars on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @07:12PM (#22123498)
> It wasn't an excessively long flight (~5 hours), but still, not sure how they could ensure the dog wouldn't need to go to the bathroom in that time.

You have the dog do its business beforehand. Same way most dogs are able to stay indoors while its owner(s) are at work for the day.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by rhexs on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:21PM (#22124250)
I've always been confused by this -- if you're allergic to dogs, and the flight is required to have a dog on it for whatever reason, is the airline then liable for any and all medical bills related to an allergic reaction after the flight? Are you not entitled to reasonable accommodation as well?
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by kelnos on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @10:35PM (#22124606)
I'm not sure... I guess maybe it depends on how severe the allergy is and how much of an issue you make of it. For me it's not life-threatening; it just makes me uncomfortable: a little nasal congestion, and perhaps my eyes feel a little itchy. I didn't say anything on that particular flight, but perhaps if I had, they could have accommodated me somehow.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by CaptainZapp on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:25AM (#22126947)
For me it's not life-threatening

Same here. It's not life threatening. But depending on the dog it can mean real misery for an extended time.

I usually have medications in my travel kit. But until a pill works it takes an hour and it can be too late.

I wouldn't complain about service animals. But scumbags, who are just too cheap to pay for proper transportation of their pet severely piss me off.

Thankfully it's not such a big issue in Europe.

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by baddox on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:11PM (#22124184)
I'm shocked you've never seen one. I fly pretty rarely, generally just 2 or 3 US domestic flights per year, and while I don't actually keep count, I'm relatively certain I see a small dog in a little cube-shaped bag on nearly every flight.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by kmonsen on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @09:22PM (#22124253)
If they are small enough they don’t have to be service animals.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by mroche on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @10:28PM (#22124568)
Anecdotal but I had 2 round trip flights between SFO and Logan (Thanksgiving/Christmas) and on each one there was at least one very small dog in the cabin. They were not service dogs, just people taking advantage of ESA to take their pets with them over the holidays. Unless there’s some Jet Blue thing I’m not aware of.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by jghn on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:26AM (#22127326)
JetBlue allows small dogs in the cabin
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by mroche on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:27PM (#22134478)
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by chrisseaton on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:50AM (#22127065)
I think on every flight I take it's 99% business people maybe that's why.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by jbarberu on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:52AM (#22128480)
With cats you'd take away their food and water about 8-10h before the flight. We took our cats in cabin from Sweden -> Florida, about 19h total door to door. They were real champs with no accidents. We lined the soft carriers with puppy pads (similar absorbent material as diapers) just in case.
Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by easytiger on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:03AM (#22126008)
Are you flying North American companies to/from USA and domestic? I've never seen it on a European airline. Suspect the rules are different

And no. The animal goes to the toilet as it normally would

Re:U.S. to let airlines limit service animals on planes by Kalium on Wednesday January 22, 2020 @06:36PM (#22123243)
I flew with a cat in a carrier. He was quite cooperative, but also quite happy to be free after being in a tiny, loud space for many hours.

Also some airports have animal relief areas on the airside.