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Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by ummonk on Friday January 17, 2020 @02:50AM (#22072710)
Funny, I hate the BART screeches so much that I consider Caltrain great in comparison. Guess I'm in blissful ignorance of what is possible. Hopefully the switch to electric trains in a decade will make Caltrain better.
Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by supernova87a on Friday January 17, 2020 @06:56AM (#22073901)
Well actually, I've been told that the problem of rail noise comes from improper maintenance of the rail track, not the motive nature of the cars themselves.

Rail requires periodic grinding to be maintained properly. When you see rail and wheels riding "flat" on each other, that's actually not how it's supposed to be -- that kind of maximum contact actually produces the squealing because the surface area has lots of opportunity to make friction-induced noise.

Supposedly, when you see a rail that's completely shiny on the top surface from being worn down, that's a sign that it hasn't been properly maintained.

A properly ground rail and wheel actually is only interacting on a very small edge of contact -- and this is what produces a quiet ride. A properly maintained rail will be quieter than almost any other mode of transport (noise from the contact surface). It takes active rail grinding though.

So actually, just a change to electric cars will not maintain quiet operations (although in the beginning I'm sure the newness of it will help). BART/Caltrain actually need to conduct the rail maintenance in order to keep it quiet.

Unfortunately, whether it's due to budget priorities being elsewhere, or an indiscriminate customer who puts up with this, unless that aspect changes, we'll be back in the same place. I don't even know whether the conductors -- the ones who would be among the first to notice such issues -- are even trained to understand this.

I encourage anyone to go ride the high speed rails of Germany, France, Italy, China, Japan, Korea, to understand what properly maintained rail is capable of feeling like. Or even the U-bahn in Munich, Frankfurt, too.

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by inferiorhuman on Friday January 17, 2020 @01:37PM (#22077666)
Well actually, I've been told that the problem of rail noise comes from improper maintenance of the rail track, not the motive nature of the cars themselves.

Noise on BART is due to a liberal application of NIH. BART literally reinvented the wheel – they used flat profile wheels (nobody else does this) which dramatically increased noise and wear. BART also spaced the tracks too tightly in turns further increasing noise and wear. They made their cars out of aluminum to save weight, creating a bit of an echo chamber (this got worse once they removed the carpeting). Caltrain doesn't have the luxury of lightweight rail cars since they share tracks with freight service.

BART doesn't bother greasing the tracks like nearly every other rail system (almost certainly an artifact of their homebrew train control system). Unfortunately while reinventing everything they opted against decoupling the wheels from each other (a.k.a. using a differential like a car or truck might).

Oh and let's not forget the Oakland Wye, BART's testament to noise, poor service, and political dysfunction.

Simply put BART can't really grind the rail fast enough to keep everything quiet for a meaningful period of time (if they could I assume the wear on the tracks would be astronomical). BART also needs custom rail grinders and whatnot because hey why not throw a custom track gauge into the mix.

So actually, just a change to electric cars will not maintain quiet operations

Caltrain is fairly quiet, at least inside. At the very least the electrification will certainly help with noise while stopped at a station.

I encourage anyone to go ride the high speed rails of Germany, France, Italy, China, Japan, Korea, to understand what properly maintained rail is capable of feeling like. Or even the U-bahn in Munich, Frankfurt, too.

Spain is missing from your list, they were instrumental in getting the Pendolino developed and, IIRC, have more high speed track than any other European country.

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by ummonk on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:19PM (#22078769)
Oh and let's not forget the Oakland Wye, BART's testament to noise, poor service, and political dysfunction.

Is that worse than the SFO Wye? Samtrans had to create a bus shuttle from Millbrae to SFO because the BART service is so useless for traveling between Caltrain and SFO most times of day.

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by inferiorhuman on Friday January 17, 2020 @04:10PM (#22079378)
Sure. SFO is a clusterfuck of BART's own doing, BART's refusal to coordinate with other transit agencies is infuriating (especially at their much ballyhooed multimodal station). Oakland, OTOH, is an example of how little priority the Bay Area places on usable transit. That Wye wouldn't be here but for the one store owner.
Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by supernova87a on Friday January 17, 2020 @06:55PM (#22080983)
but for the one store owner

What's the story behind that??

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by inferiorhuman on Friday January 17, 2020 @08:56PM (#22081647)
I'd have to look it up to get more precise details but essentially back when BART was being built out originally they wanted to build through developed land (could've just been the underground rights). They were able to acquire everything except for one parcel. I'm hazy why eminent domain wasn't used (especially since it's been so wildly abused elsewhere in the country in the subsequent decades), but ultimately BART had to build around this property resulting in an absurdly tight curve. The store is gone but the wye remains as a bottleneck – BART trains have to slow to walking speed (ok ok about 18 mph) to go through it.

Edit:

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/07/brake-slamming-...

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by ummonk on Friday January 17, 2020 @07:05PM (#22081057)
Rail noise isn't really an issue for Caltrain - but you do have some shaking as well as some noise from the diesel engines. Thus, I expect that electrification and using modern trainsets will create a good experience.

BART on the other hand has horribly loud screeching noises because of its idiosyncratic design choices.

Re:Caltrain Vibration and Volatility Analysis by scrumbledober on Friday January 17, 2020 @11:52AM (#22076374)
I recently had a conversation at work where I commented how great Caltrain was since I used to commute on BART. My foreign-born coworkers all laughed at me. I look forward to riding some nicer train systems in the future.