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Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by tobias2014 on Saturday January 11, 2020 @11:33PM (#22024495)
This is funny, I could tell exactly the same story the other way around. I came as a 10+ year Debian user to Archlinux because it did too much automagic under the hood that broke and took a lot of time to fix. No breakage on arch because no automagic behind your back.

For a long time before using arch I thought too that rolling release might be more unstable, but I have come to the conclusion that quite the opposite might be true.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by rumanator on Sunday January 12, 2020 @07:14AM (#22025937)
> I came as a 10+ year Debian user to Archlinux because it did too much automagic under the hood that broke and took a lot of time to fix.

This assertion makes no sense. Debian Stable has always the paragon of stability to the point that it's actually criticised for it. The Debian Testing release is even famous for being more solid than other distro's stable releases.

Breaking changes in Debian are practically only remotely possible in Debian Unstable or if you purposely install packages from backports or PPA repositories that have no assurance of stability or even maintenance.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by Carpetsmoker on Sunday January 12, 2020 @08:52AM (#22026258)
The problem isn't so much that Debian packages or the ecosystem "breaks" as such, but that you run in to bugs (sometimes already fixed ones), and that you're then basically stuck with that unless you, the maintainer, or someone else decides to backport the fix, and they frequently don't get backported especially not for "minor" bugs.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday January 12, 2020 @12:48PM (#22027707)
Just compile it yourself and put it in /usr/local.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by Carpetsmoker on Monday January 13, 2020 @04:50PM (#22039092)
Well, yeah, but that's bypassing the package manager. You can say that in response to pretty much every argument about "I don't like package manager X because Y".
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by useragent86 on Saturday January 18, 2020 @05:11PM (#22087655)
Use "checkinstall" instead of "make install". It builds and installs packages automatically.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by rascul on Sunday January 12, 2020 @03:15AM (#22025146)
Could you give some examples of the automagic stuff Debian does under the hood?
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by hendry on Sunday January 12, 2020 @05:23AM (#22025544)
debhelper
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by morelisp on Sunday January 12, 2020 @06:14AM (#22025715)
debhelper is a library of tools for building packages. Debian users should not need to be aware debhelper exists, or even have it installed.

Maybe you meant debconf? When I was a DD it was an RC bug if your package used debconf to do "magic", i.e. using it as a registry for an application, or not properly re-seeding answers from the configuration and assuming the debconf db was the source of truth.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by celticmusic on Sunday January 12, 2020 @04:45AM (#22025414)
thankfully I said Ubuntu and not Debian.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shakna on Sunday January 12, 2020 @06:48AM (#22025847)
Ubuntu has _more_ magic that breaks a lot more frequently in less expected ways than Debian.
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by AnonymousPlanet on Sunday January 12, 2020 @09:11AM (#22026334)
Huh, when does anything break in Ubuntu LTS if you don't do a dist-upgrade? There's nothing to break if nothing changes. And the minor version upgrades along the years have not broken anything on any of my installs. Arch on the other hand ...
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shakna on Sunday January 12, 2020 @02:09PM (#22028413)
> Huh, when does anything break in Ubuntu LTS if you don't do a dist-upgrade?

That's a fist-full of caveats. Arch is willing to upgrade the kernel, maybe you should include a dist-upgrade in the comparison.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by AnonymousPlanet on Sunday January 12, 2020 @02:17PM (#22028490)
And that is precisely what you should not. The dist-upgrade is something you can plan for and set time aside for. The risky rolling mini upgrade every couple of weeks you can not. That is a huge difference!
Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shakna on Sunday January 12, 2020 @02:20PM (#22028510)
> The dist-upgrade is something you can plan for and set time aside for. The risky rolling mini upgrade every couple of weeks you can not.

I can plan for it? You can see if you're upgrading your kernel. Nothing breaks if you decide not to run an upgrade.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by AnonymousPlanet on Sunday January 12, 2020 @04:12PM (#22029391)
And then I sit with a hopelessly old system I dare not to touch because I dread the day I have to do that kernel update or that one update that pulls in a new libc, leading to an upgrade orgy. I have seen that plenty of times.

This nonsense is why stable and LTS releases were introduced in the first place.

If I'm faced with a major upgrade of an LTS system, I usually choose to reinstall from scratch, shedding packages I haven't needed for a long time with it. But that happens every couple years or so.

If you're okay with hitting the forums now and then to find out why your desktop has been behaving oddly the last two weeks, rolling is your thing. You won't have to break in your new dist-upgraded or freshly installed system for like two weeks.

If you don't want to play lottery every time you hit enter for that update or if you're a business where you can't afford possibly breaking all your laptops for some security update, stable is your only option.

It's "choose the best tool for the job" I guess.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shakna on Monday January 13, 2020 @12:47AM (#22032135)
> If I'm faced with a major upgrade of an LTS system, I usually choose to reinstall from scratch, shedding packages I haven't needed for a long time with it. But that happens every couple years or so.

This goes back to my original point, which we've drifted a little from.

Ubuntu has more unexpected behaving when upgrading than Debian.

A working dist-upgrade should not be something that your OS struggles to provide. Asking people to reinstall their OS isn't an acceptable answer.

Upgrading should not be a lottery.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by celticmusic on Monday January 13, 2020 @05:08AM (#22033205)
it's called LTS for a reason. Just don't dist-upgrade, problem solved.

This argument that you MUST dist-upgrade as soon as the next version is available, and completely ignore the entire idea around LTS, is silly.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by shakna on Monday January 13, 2020 @05:16PM (#22039324)
> This argument that you MUST dist-upgrade as soon as the next version is available, and completely ignore the entire idea around LTS, is silly.

This idea that you never want to upgrade from one LTS to the next is equally ridiculous. Upgrading the operating system is part of the package manager's job.

Re:OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR by celticmusic on Sunday January 12, 2020 @07:28PM (#22030840)
this reply 100% mirrors my thoughts on the matter, all the way down to preferring re-installs over dist-upgrade's.

I like Linux, I don't dislike dealing with the OS. But I want to deal with it on my time. Expecting to get work done and then realizing something is broken and being forced to deal with it is a completely different proposition from picking out a weekend to reinstall your work PC with the newest LTS version.