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Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by barry-cotter on Sunday January 05, 2020 @05:09PM (#21964510)
> Therapy is the answer here. You have to un-brainwash yourself from the notion that your job is your life and figure out what really matters to you. Then focus on that, and use your job to fill the boring hours in between.

You’re going to spend more time at work than doing almost anything else during those years of your life where you work. Why not do something meaningful with those hours if you can? And if OP can get a job at Google they almost certainly can.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by CydeWeys on Sunday January 05, 2020 @05:26PM (#21964597)
What percentage of software engineers are doing "something meaningful"? That seems like a small number, no?

Contrast with teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers, etc., almost all of whom I think would say they do something meaningful.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by barry-cotter on Sunday January 05, 2020 @06:31PM (#21965039)
I’ve been a teacher. It’s basically just a job. If you want meaning have your own children.

I have no idea what proportion of software engineers consider what they do meaningful but the team who work on Google Scholar have done a great deal for me and I’m not even an academic. The drivers at Uber and Lyft and their riders have almost all had their lives improved by their existence. Amazon has made the experience of buying books so much better it’s ridiculous. Lambda School is taking 1000s of people from basically useless as programmers to a new career. Those are all pretty meaningful, at least as meaningful as your list, which seems be about displaying caring as much as actually effecting people’s lives.

If you build something people want and it isn’t harmful you’re having an effect.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by greenie_beans on Sunday January 05, 2020 @10:03PM (#21966077)
I'm not sure I agree that Amazon has done meaningful work in the world of books. They've crippled the book industry. They've ran a ton of brick and mortar bookstores out of business, which has effectively destroyed community centers. There are other alternatives to Amazon that have "made the experience of buying books so much easier". Visit powells.com or alibris.com.

And what they've done to the publishing industry is a whole nother beast.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by wayoutthere on Sunday January 05, 2020 @10:29PM (#21966191)
Likewise for Lyft and Uber; they just haven't fully collapsed yet -- but give them another 2 years. There will be a smoking pit in the short-range transit market because it costs at least twice what riders pay today just to keep the drivers making the same amount when the VC subsidies go away, and nobody is willing to pay that. You're already starting to see the subsidies dry up with food delivery services where there's an additional $15-20 in fees.

The next recession is going to be a bloodbath for a lot of low-income people when the demand for the gig economy dries up.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by CiPHPerCoder on Monday January 06, 2020 @01:55AM (#21967124)
> They've ran a ton of brick and mortar bookstores out of business, which has effectively destroyed community centers.

Can you really blame Amazon for destroying community centers because they put bookstores out of business?

Bookstores aren't the only viable community center, after all. Most cities and counties have a public library that's supposed to exist for the community's benefit. Additionally, in rural parts of the US, the only real community center you used to find was a church, not a library or a bookstore.

Personally speaking, my community centers exist on Signal, WhatsApp, IRC, Mastodon, Slack, Twitter, Telegram, and Facebook. (And I neglect half of those entirely.) I don't see any need to have a physical watering hole.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by greenie_beans on Monday January 06, 2020 @11:39PM (#21976886)
I guess it depends on the place, honestly. The best communities I've been a part of -- in my short existence -- revolved around bookstores. Maybe that's subjective, but I can also argue that Signal, WhatsApp, etc aren't the only viable community centers.

Also, I'm from rural US, and those places do revolve around churches, but the pockets of enlightenment revolve around bookstores. IMO, a healthy community has a strong group of intellectuals. Intellectuals tend to gravitate to bookstores.

And yes, you can definitely blame Amazon for putting bookstores out of business. I'm too lazy to find stats to support that, but there is definitely evidence that Amazon is to blame.

And sure, libraries are for the community's benefit in an ideal world, but I'm talking about the real world.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by CiPHPerCoder on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @07:58AM (#21979490)
I never disputed the premise anyway. Just that the conclusion doesn't follow from it.

If communities die when bookstores die, sure, you can blame that on what killed the bookstore. But regardless of blame, whose responsibility is it to ensure communities continue? (This isn't the same thing as blame.)

My point isn't "bookstores are the wrong answer". My point is "bookstores aren't the only correct answer". Diversify.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by greenie_beans on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @10:22AM (#21980723)
Yeah. I'd agree with that. I also think you, CiPHPerCoder, should implant yourself in a local bookstore and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about :)
Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by CiPHPerCoder on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @11:40AM (#21981585)
There isn't one within 20 miles of my house, so I think I'll pass on that. :P
Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by greenie_beans on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:57PM (#21984097)
Blame Amazon! :P
Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by kqr on Monday January 06, 2020 @01:16AM (#21966954)
All of those you list as doing something meaningful can multiply their efforts if only there's a good software developer upstream from them.

Software developers invent the tools and environments that enable other people to do more efficient work. Sometimes it enables entire classes of meaning work that weren't possible before. How can that not be meaningful?

For better or worse, everything is driven by software these days. All work is, directly or indirectly, powered by software. Being in software is like the most meaningful thing you can do.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by ikeyany on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:11AM (#21967197)
Many jobs in our society enable others to do efficient work. From the bus drivers that get Google employees to work to the teachers that work 60 hour days educating future doctors and lawyers--it's hard to say that engineers are particularly special in this regard.
Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by kqr on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:00AM (#21967963)
Sorry for coming across as implying we're special! I have to learn to watch my hyperbole. While I do value teaching highly on the meaningfulness scale[1], I don't think driving compares just as well with the mathematical argument that the effort expanded/effort saved is constant given the number of passengers you take (which in turn is practically bounded to small-ish n), whereas for software engineering that measure scales entirely differently.

[1]: If anything, I think teaching is more meaningful, using the same argument: do software engineering and you can do one human's job of software engineering. Teach 10 software engineers and you are by extension doing software engineering as 10 humans.

On a side note: if anyone here hasn't tried tutoring/teaching natural sciences/programming in a one-on-one setting or very small group, I seriously recommend it. It's surprisingly similar to software engineering; in many ways, it's wetware engineering! You get to debug the logic in people's brains as they work through problems.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by barry-cotter on Monday January 06, 2020 @02:41AM (#21967318)
Teachers do not work 60 hours a week. Bureau of Labor Statistics time use studies find that the only age group of teachers that work more than forty hours a week are those over 50.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by ikeyany on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:10AM (#21967456)
It looks like those statistics have summer months included. That changes things from "60 hour work weeks when school is in session" to "60 hour work weeks amortized over a year".

In addition that study notes that teachers are more likely to work a second job, something a Google engineer wouldn't need to do to make a decent wage.

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by barry-cotter on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:22AM (#21967517)
The median household income in California is $70K[1].

> The average salary of public school teachers in 2017 – 18 for the State of California was $80,680. [2]

Teachers make a perfectly decent wage as is, more than the average household .

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSCAA646N

[2] https://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/fr/sa/cefavgsalaries.asp

Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by drivebycomment on Sunday January 05, 2020 @09:11PM (#21965847)
The meaning is what you define and draw from. Even the job of driving a garbage truck has a meaning. Software is no different - short of doing something actively harmful or you are morally against, you can find a meaning in any job. It may not satisfy your ambition or ego, but that's a different problem that finding a meaning.
Re:Ask HN: I've been slacking off at Google for 6 years. How... by wayoutthere on Sunday January 05, 2020 @07:15PM (#21965307)
I think you absolutely can find meaning at work, but it cannot replace the meaning you find outside of work. You can tolerate doing a meaningless job if you have other things in your life to sustain you, but you can't guarantee your work will always be meaningful. Finding meaning outside work is resiliency.