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Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by edflsafoiewq on Thursday January 02, 2020 @03:57AM (#21933894)
What do you expect them to actually do? The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by eeh on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:08AM (#21933923)
If every country acted that way, we'd make no progress.

Every country needs to do its fair share, and Australia is not: http://theconversation.com/australia-hit-its-kyoto-target-bu...

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by jamesbfb on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:28AM (#21933996)
Absolutely. Anthony Albanese (opposition leader for Labor here in Aus) said exactly this today on ABC. Whilst there is negligible correlation between the fires and our action (or inaction) to climate change as a country, the rhetoric of “well, we output so little compared of other developed nations” should not apply.

Oh, and our elected Prime Minister brought a lump of coal into parliament, which says as much.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by mceoin on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:25AM (#21934224)
Also important to recognize that Australia's carbon contribution is not solely limited to domestic output but also our coal industry. Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world and this is not properly accounted for in our emissions accounting. On a per-person basis, our output is among the highest in the world and the inaction of others does not absolve us from having a moral responsibility to clean up our own mess at the very least.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by eeh on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:36AM (#21934283)
Counting exports would lead to double counting: once for the exporter, once for the user.

All that matters is countries having fair targets, and meeting those targets.

Countries are free to meet their emissions reductions targets how they like, including buying cheap coal from Australia, planes from US, and cars from Germany.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by apexalpha on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:21AM (#21935110)
It would double count emissions but it does mean that Australia could do more than just eliminate their own emissions, they could limit other countries' as well by stopping export.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by eeh on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:16PM (#21939911)
Let's walk before we can run. It's difficulty enough to get countries to reduce their own emissions. Asking them to compromise their exports to reduce others' emissions is simply not viable at the moment.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by mceoin on Thursday January 02, 2020 @07:56PM (#21941841)
Why shouldn't a citizenry decide to limit exports of certain goods when it is in their own interest to do so? We certainly do this with uranium already. Likewise with weapons technology and all manner of harmful trade vectors.

Australia's coal industry provides few jobs, is heavily government subsidized (either explicitly or through direct infrastructure funding), pays little to no tax, and creates environmental harm that the majority of the electorate disagree with.

[Sorry HN: I know I should be supporting this with annotations but am time pressed today.]

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by eeh on Friday January 03, 2020 @05:38AM (#21944775)
One of Queensland's few industries is the coal industry, and so it grips on to it. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jun/08/coal-...

Regional Queenslanders don't want to end up like the old coal mining towns of the UK, which still have not recovered from the mine closures in 1980s. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/26/blighted-coa...

I'm not saying coal is morally defensible, but this is democracy in action.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by desdiv on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:54AM (#21934086)
Australia produced 19.6 tonnes of coal _per person_ in 2018. That's the highest in the world. I don't think it's in any position to be pointing fingers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_coal_prod...

481.3 million tonnes of coal / 24.6 million people

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by nomercy400 on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:18AM (#21934180)
It's a bit strange to use the population density of Australia to make a point, as the population density of Australia is one of the lowest in the world (3).

You're basically saying we should tackle Australia's 481 before China's 3523 or India's 716 or US' 702. Maybe we should tackle China first, as it is producing 45% of the world's coal, compared to 6% of Australia.

Now if you were to say that Australia is the 5th biggest producer of coal in the world, that'd be a more convincing argument.

I'm also surprised by Indonesia (6th). And the fact that Germany and Poland contribute 60% of the EU's (4th) coal production.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by perilunar on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:14AM (#21935072)
> Maybe we should tackle China first, as it is producing 45% of the world's coal, compared to 6% of Australia.

Who is 'we', and how do you suggest 'we' tackle China first?

Each country has to take care of its own emissions — we can’t wait for China to act first.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by pjc50 on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:50AM (#21934363)
Much of Australia's coal is burned in China.

Germany is a literal "black spot" in that the coal industry still has political muscle there, despite Germany's otherwise relatively strong (but still very much minority) green movement.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by daemin on Thursday January 02, 2020 @06:08AM (#21934446)
They [Germany] got rid of their environmentally friendly nuclear reactors in favour of burning more coal after Fukishima. They're doing a bit of solar but are burning ever more and more coal.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by cygx on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:11AM (#21935053)
[Germans] are burning ever more and more coal

We've missed our reduction goals, but reducton did happen (about 20% over the last 15 years, and the decrease has even been monotonic since 2013).

I keep having to correct this on hackernews specifically. I have to wonder, is there some sort of concerted effort to lie about this?

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by nl on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:51AM (#21935307)
is there some sort of concerted effort to lie about this?

Yeah, there is a strong pro-nuclear group on HN who believe it has unfairly been targeted.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by daemin on Friday January 03, 2020 @07:13AM (#21945237)
It would still be more now than if the reactors had not been shut down right?

I guess I should not throw stones since both countries I live in are worse than this. Specifically they dig out more and more coal every year without stopping.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by bjourne on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:04AM (#21935016)
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by pjc50 on Thursday January 02, 2020 @06:43AM (#21934592)
Yeah, this was in my opinion an overreaction. The calculus for building a new reactor (expensive, time consuming) versus keeping an existing one going is very different.

On the other hand, Germany had already experienced the Chernobyl cloud.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by phs318u on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:58AM (#21934106)
Australia did not fight with the Allies against the Axis powers in WWII because our contribution would make a difference either way. We fought because it was the right thing to do. And in the cause of this global emergency we chose to contribute our fair share and to back our principled beliefs with principled actions.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by mceoin on Thursday January 02, 2020 @08:04PM (#21941902)
I think Australia had more than pure idealism in mind during the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Sydney_Harbour
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by hulahoof on Friday January 03, 2020 @03:00AM (#21944108)
Australia was already at war from '39 and against Japan since '41.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by adventured on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:09AM (#21933924)
> The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change

That's not quite true. You're not including Australia's extraction economy in that equation, only their local emissions. A similar miscalculation happens when people pretend Norway is a low CO2 output & impact nation by ignoring its extreme fossil fuel extraction per capita.

The obvious answer is to stop feeding China's emissions engine, which is dramatically larger than anybody else when it comes to CO2 emissions (and they're building a very large number of new coal plants). Unfortunately that probably wouldn't help much for very long, as China is de facto occupying Africa for resource extraction purposes.

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by bjowen on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:14PM (#21940522)
Also it’d probably help if we stopped outsourcing our emissions to China by sending a bunch of manufacturing there.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by arcticbull on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:09AM (#21933925)
No definitely, the same is true of every single region on earth. But by our powers combined...
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by boulos on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:30AM (#21934001)
For those that don’t know the reference, it’s from Captain Planet:

https://youtu.be/WtUF1nEQ_2c

Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by Scarblac on Thursday January 02, 2020 @05:40AM (#21934312)
Australia actually mines a lot of coal and exports it. It has more power to do something than most.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by BLKNSLVR on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:20AM (#21933964)
Export less to the bigger emitters. Campaign to the world using the bushfires as an example of how normal historic occurrences (bushfires) are intensified - which will probably strike a chord, although unnecessarily, in California. Use Australia's phenomenal natural gifts of empty expenses of land and abundant sunshine to generate electricity, to use directly or create portable hydrogen, or any other such pursuit requiring large amounts of electricity.
Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by djrobstep on Thursday January 02, 2020 @04:25AM (#21933984)
Each serial killer has a miniscule effect on the overall crime rate, so it's stupid to have any kind of moral expectation for them to stop!
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Re:Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia by jdnenej on Thursday January 02, 2020 @06:39AM (#21934571)
The solution is obviously to punish and prevent all crimes even if none of them individually have much of an impact.