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Re:"You've angered the hive" by michaelchisari on Monday February 07, 2011 @03:53PM (#2190680)
It's all fun and games until you're ruining lives.

This was never fun and games for the causes Anonymous has championed: Wikileaks, Egyptian and Tunisian protestors, etc.

Anonymous, despite it's origins, is a political movement centered around the cause of internet freedom. That's not a matter of fun and games, and I support Anonymous because of that.

In other words, if given the choice between a political movement fighting for an ideal I support, and the ability of a corporation to maintain it's revenue stream, I'm going to fall in support of the political movement most of the time.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by warfangle on Monday February 07, 2011 @10:39PM (#2191832)
Anonymous is not a political movement. Some of the causes it champions are for internet freedom, certainly. The ends, anyway. You have to remember it didn't begin that way. It began with childish 'raids' on Habbo Hotel, DDOS of Support Online Hip-Hop, etc. The first big movement for freedom was Project Chanology (mixed in with the childish attacks).

I think this tipped some folks off about how powerful Anonymous could be, if it was guided somehow. Or maybe, it was simply the awakening within Anonymous that it could be something other than a childish prankster.

I've always thought that 4chan was synonymous with the internet's "id;" now it seems as if Anonymous is the birth of the internet's superego. There may be people subtly playing with strings (the aforementioned - a few responses up in a different thread - inner circle of quite competent blackhats), but largely I think Anonymous has become self-fulfilling. A meme catches its interest, and it acts.

Hell, there's even a link to the "Stand Alone Complex" section of the Ghost in the Shell philosophy page. Not a philo-head myself, but it makes sense. Network intelligence together close enough, and a different kind of intelligence will probably emerge.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by michaelchisari on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:08PM (#2191880)
I think this tipped some folks off about how powerful Anonymous could be, if it was guided somehow. Or maybe, it was simply the awakening within Anonymous that it could be something other than a childish prankster.

Historically, this describes a lot of political formations beyond Anonymous. There's a number of situations where semi-apolitical hooligans became political forces. The Young Lords, for instance.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by yters on Monday February 07, 2011 @07:16PM (#2191355)
That is all fun and games under the rationalization of easy, naive moralizing.

Now, if they take down censorship in China or targeted a similar actual oppressive regime instead of going after easy targets, then they'd have my respect.

For example, their attack on Scientology is something I respect, but that was only shortlived since Scientology is actually bad and will cause Anon significant damage.

So, as we can see, it is actually just for the lulz and not a higher ideal.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by pjscott on Monday February 07, 2011 @07:33PM (#2191395)
One can have high ideals without necessarily being brave or persistent in the pursuit of those ideals.
Re:"You've angered the hive" by yters on Tuesday February 08, 2011 @06:36PM (#2195414)
But then they aren't worth praising, especially if their "pursuit" of said ideals harms people's lives needlessly.
Re:"You've angered the hive" by tzs on Monday February 07, 2011 @07:54PM (#2191457)
> Anonymous, despite it's origins, is a political movement centered around the cause of internet freedom. That's not a matter of fun and games, and I support Anonymous because of that.

What about Anonymous' attack on Gene Simmons, for expressing an opinion they did not agree with? Or is your notion of internet freedom that only people who have the right opinions get to speak?

Re:"You've angered the hive" by warfangle on Tuesday February 08, 2011 @01:28AM (#2192194)
Anonymous' attack on Gene Simmons was for his advocating suing the pants off of anyone and everyone. Then he went and said, basically, that he'd found some of them and was going to post their pictures online. That really let loose the hounds.

In Anonymous' mind (I have absolutely no relationship with the group, other than academic curiosity), I believe it goes a little like the aversion we have as a society to not incite riots. He was advocating being (potentially) frivolously litigious. That made him a target - not some random opinion.

Compare how Gene acts towards the internet and how Trent Reznor acts towards the internet. Gene may have an order of magnitude higher net worth (~300mm vs ~35mm, according to "Celebrity Net Worth" - probably not a very good source), but he got it by playing crappy bass in a mediocre band, being a litigious douchebag, selling a lot of over the top merchandise. Trent made it by making good (subjectively) music, and continued to make it by making music instead of Nine Inch Nails-branded coffins. And uses the internet to great success.

Which is a better netizen?

Re:"You've angered the hive" by michaelchisari on Monday February 07, 2011 @08:07PM (#2191497)
Or is your notion of internet freedom that only people who have the right opinions get to speak?

I'm not Anonymous, so I'm not sure why you're addressing that to me.

And more importantly, those who took down Gene Simmons' website may not even have been the same people who had anything to do with Mastercard, Visa, Paypal, Egypt, Tunisia, Iran, etc. That's the nature of a decentralized, amorphous non-entity like Anonymous.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by GHFigs on Monday February 07, 2011 @09:48PM (#2191710)
I'm not sure why you're addressing that to me.

You said it was a political movement that you supported. It's entirely reasonable to ask you what that movement stands for.

(Hint: The reason you're finding that a difficult question is that Anonymous is not a political movement and you're just projecting your own beliefs onto it whenever it happens to do something you think is good.)

Re:"You've angered the hive" by michaelchisari on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:16PM (#2191894)
I don't find it a difficult question, actually. It's something I've been meaning to write about for a while now. Anonymous is a political movement that is analogous to the internet immune system. It self-organizes, and attacks that which it deems a threat to internet freedom.

Gene Simmons was attacked because his statements, and his position as a pop star made him a target as a threat. Like all immune systems, Anonymous is known to overreact.

If you look at the targets for Anonymous in terms of political uprisings, you'll notice a concentration of places where the internet played a large role and/or was targeted. Uprisings occur the world over, but Anonymous gets involved when the internet is threatened.

In this sense, the use of the "V for Vendetta" mask is a perfect symbol for Anonymous, for anyone who has read the comic book (or even just seen the film adaptation).

The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

V was not so much interested in popular revolt, anarchism, social equality, etc. per se. He was interested in revenge. Justice became the ultimate form of revenge against a tyrannical government.

You can see that similarly in the actions of Anonymous. Democratic movements are supported against dictatorships, and transparency is supported against representatives of Democracy. Not because Anonymous is a positive force for Democracy or transparency, but because those are weapons they can wield against the internet's perceived enemies.

So yes, Anonymous is a political movement, although a leaderless, amorphous, and pluralistic one united only in negative political space. They don't seek to create, as much as destroy their political enemies. But, as some say, "the urge to destroy is also a creative urge".

Re:"You've angered the hive" by GHFigs on Tuesday February 08, 2011 @07:12AM (#2192631)
If you look at the targets for Anonymous in terms of political uprisings...

...you engender such a large selection bias that I remain as convinced as ever that you're simply projecting your own beliefs onto something considerably more nihilistic. Yes, if you throw out everything that doesn't fit the quotably Bakuninian pattern you expect by saying "oh, but that was different people" or "oh, that was just an overreaction", it all becomes so clear...but if you don't, you get a messy and impure reality in which Anonymous better resembles Brownian motion than a movement.

Re:"You've angered the hive" by michaelchisari on Tuesday February 08, 2011 @10:38AM (#2193183)
I take those into account but disregard them because of my experience with asymmetrical umbrella movements. Because a dozen griefers do something and call themselves Anonymous or are labelled with it by the media doesn't mean that they have the capability to define a movement. It's not insignificant, but at the same time, it's barely significant. Groups with these formations are defined by their most significant actions, not their least.
Re:"You've angered the hive" by bonch on Tuesday February 08, 2011 @11:33PM (#2196323)
"Anonymous, despite it's origins, is a political movement centered around the cause of internet freedom. That's not a matter of fun and games, and I support Anonymous because of that."

It's just a bunch of bored college kids looking for a cause to belong to.