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Re:Do the rich need Americans? by CWuestefeld on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:14AM (#2189452)
Late last year, the U.S. economy experienced a surprising decoupling. As stocks boomed, the wealthy bounced back.

Isn't this completely predictable? When the government invests hundreds of billions of dollars into the market, by way of dumping money into the financial and automobile industries, and that money's source is loans backed by the people-at-large, then of course this is happening.

The government is transferring money from the taxpayers to those invested in the capital markets. Anybody who believes that the government (not just the GOP but the Democrats as well) is working for the little guy, is a sucker.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by yummyfajitas on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:24AM (#2189500)
by way of dumping money into the financial and automobile industries,

Um, the UAW bailout didn't benefit the rich much. Most bondholders/etc took a haircut. The primary beneficiaries were the upper middle class UAW workers/nonworkers (they didn't take a haircut).

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by Alex3917 on Monday February 07, 2011 @01:23PM (#2190022)
The whole reason the UAW is broke is that in the 60s the rich promised the workers future money they didn't have so that they could take more money out of the company. How exactly is that an example of the rich losing money?
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by yummyfajitas on Monday February 07, 2011 @01:36PM (#2190065)
What I was responding to: "When the government invests hundreds of billions of dollars into the market, by way of dumping money into the financial and automobile industries,..."

CWuestfield and I were discussing actions taken by the government during the bailout, not a business plan the UAW and GM entered into in the 60's.

During the bailout, the administration funneled billions of taxpayer dollars (many of which were paid by people earning less than UAW employees) to the UAW. In the process, they also screwed over bondholders (and ignored the rule of law) who had a legitimate claim to part of the proceeds of GM's liquidation.

That's an example of the government screwing over the rich (and middle class) for the benefit of the upper middle class.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by Alex3917 on Monday February 07, 2011 @02:14PM (#2190199)
"CWuestfield and I were discussing actions taken by the government during the bailout, not a business plan the UAW and GM entered into in the 60's."

Yeah, but the reason the bondholders were unhappy (as anamax said) is that it officially sanctions this sort of malfeasance, and therefore makes the bond market more risky.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by jbooth on Monday February 07, 2011 @03:19PM (#2190489)
Only sort of. There's a case to be made that, without government assistance, bondholders would be receiving less money in a liquidation than they'll wind up receiving post-haircut. Of course, they wouldn't get to blame unions for their poor investment decision, so it might not be worth the lack of emotional gratification :)
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by CWuestefeld on Monday February 07, 2011 @03:34PM (#2190578)
This may or may not be true, depending on specific details that I don't know.

But it's certainly true that equity holders came out quite a bit richer than they otherwise would have. Owners of common stock are last in line in a liquidation, so they likely would have gotten very little. But now they've got more equity than at the time of the bailout.

Thus, the government pumped taxpayer money into GM shareholders.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by yummyfajitas on Monday February 07, 2011 @04:08PM (#2190759)
As far as I'm aware, GM shareholders received nothing.

In the bankruptcy, the Motors Liquidation Company purchased all the valuable assets (including the names and trademarks) from GM. The proceeds were (and are still being) used to pay bondholders and other creditors. Anything remaining would be given to shareholders, but the proceeds of the sale are not expected to be even close to sufficient for this to occur (that's why GM went bankrupt to begin with).

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by CWuestefeld on Monday February 07, 2011 @05:49PM (#2191131)
I wasn't aware of this. You're saying that the bankruptcy essentially created a new company, with the original stockholders left with dangling pointers to essentially nothing but a prayer that the new company might give them something?
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by yummyfajitas on Monday February 07, 2011 @08:10PM (#2191507)
I believe that's the general gist of it, though I freely admit I don't know a lot about it. I'd be very happy to defer to someone who knows more about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reorg...

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by CWuestefeld on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:56AM (#2189627)
They were treated unfairly compared to the union, yes. But it still beats Chapter 11 (probably).

Update: the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this is true. If the company really had to be liquidated, the bond holders may have been paid off. But the equity holders would have really taken a bath. So the government did, in fact, keep the equity market rolling.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by anamax on Monday February 07, 2011 @12:22PM (#2189774)
The bondholders disagreed. They'd have rather had a real bankruptcy.

One of the consequences of not honoring the usual rules of debt in bankruptcy is that loans to govt favored industries/companies are now seen as more risky, which makes them more expensive.

Re:Do the rich need Americans? by fdghjkh on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:26AM (#2189505)
But I imagine the people buying and selling those failing bonds still took a commission
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by yummyfajitas on Monday February 07, 2011 @11:37AM (#2189539)
Assuming they were all purchased at retail prices, that was about $8/trade (typical bond face values are about $1000). (In reality, it was probably on the order of pennies.) I.e., not very much.
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by omouse on Monday February 07, 2011 @12:43PM (#2189864)
How much more money do they have than the typical employee working at one of those auto-companies? :|
Re:Do the rich need Americans? by Florin_Andrei on Monday February 07, 2011 @01:28PM (#2190042)
> Anybody who believes that the government (not just the GOP but the Democrats as well) is working for the little guy, is a sucker.

Correct. It's the big corporations, out of the goodness of their hearts, that accomplish this generous task.