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Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by wnzl on Friday December 27, 2019 @04:32AM (#21890208)
My experience with education is that you are often forced to write in order "to please" the teacher, rather than express yourself (if you want the proper degree). So personally I do not really believe in any of those numbers.

Edit: At least not on academic level, there I think it looks bit differently.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by hanniabu on Friday December 27, 2019 @10:14AM (#21891753)
My biggest peeve is the length requirements with writing. There's no need for fluff unless you're going into literature. People need to learn how to succinctly get their point across.

I remember we'd have reports where we need to write 10 pages and I would finish everything in 4 pages and have no idea what to do after that and then it just becomes a game of bullshitting to draw it out.

Same thing with essays where it needs to be a page long and I'm able to answer on a paragraph.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by neltnerb on Friday December 27, 2019 @10:49AM (#21891943)
I have actually repeatedly heard the same complaint from professors. They don't want to read a bunch of 20 page papers when the standard in the field for (technical) publications is like 4. So they put maximum page limits on, which makes vastly more sense all around.

Maybe in philosophy it's necessary because the standard media is books or long essays so making sure you can play the "game of bullshitting" is a useful vocational skill in that field, to make your text long enough for people to buy your book.

No offense intended to philosophers, I love philosophy. But practical considerations like earning a living from a philosophy degree are perhaps different. It's kind of hard to sum up a new philosophical treatise in four pages since you'd probably take that long just to define your version of what "good" means.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by vorpalhex on Friday December 27, 2019 @11:00AM (#21892006)
My philosophy papers always had the most strict page limits. Try arguing against Nozick in 3 double spaced pages...
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by hos234 on Friday December 27, 2019 @10:35AM (#21891869)
You should be able to make that case to your prof. You would probably get points for it :)

Some profs are subject matter experts who have no actual understanding of Pedagogy. So they pick up whatever rules someone else tells them to use, and then with time figure out what works and doesn't from feedback (which students are always very hesitant to give).

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by BrandoElFollito on Saturday December 28, 2019 @02:11AM (#21897625)
We had informal requirements (or better, "expectations") for the length of a PhD thesis (physics). It was about 200 pages.

Mine was a whooping 40 pages. Introduction to the subject was two sentences and the fact that if you need an introduction to the matter you should probably not be reading this thesis which deals with a super specialized area.

One of the reviewers refused to read it on the basis of the size. The four others looked relieved not to have to go though the history of physics again.

I hope that things are changing in this age of blogs and concerned information, the French idea of a thesis made of published articles and a few pages of glue is great.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by cdubzzz on Friday December 27, 2019 @11:47AM (#21892343)
One of the best and most challenging classes I took in university was a course on Old/Middle English lit where the professor required us to write a paper for each class (two classes per week) with a one page _limit_. It was fun and really hard.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by watwut on Friday December 27, 2019 @11:48AM (#21892353)
The point of essay is arguments and making reader believe you. Of course you can answer question in one paragraph, but that is only part of point. Another one is to verbalise multiple arguments to support and deny your position.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by dzamie on Friday December 27, 2019 @03:57PM (#21894581)
Right, so "write an essay following X structure that's Y paragraphs long as defined by the structure" (eg three arguments for and one countered argument against, plus an intro and conclusion) is fine. "The paper must be at least 6 pages long" is not. I'd much rather read and write "this uses Mouse A rather than B because A was much cheaper for similar functionality" instead of "the reason for which the first discussed mouse, Mouse A, was chosen to be used in this project instead of the alternative, Mouse B, was due to a cost-benefit analysis. The first mouse performed various tasks at near or surpassing ability when compared to the outputs of Mouse B; with this, and the significant price discrepancy heavily in favor of Mouse A, it is clear that the minor detriments in functionality shown by Mouse A are easily outweighed by the the more potent upside of being notably less expensive than Mouse B."

You may notice that the second example is TERRIBLE writing: too many modifiers, uncomfortable sentence structure, repetition of full names instead of pronouns, uses and defines "cost benefit analysis" instead of... not doing that. But it's longer! Easier to fit that length minimum! If you intend to require a depth of argument or a number of pros and cons, say you'll grade on that.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by watwut on Saturday December 28, 2019 @04:26AM (#21898032)
1.) I have never seen essay about mouse selection. While possible, that would be purely exercise in structure. Structure exercises exists, but again rarely about topic like mouse selection. Just a bad match to format.

2.) The style of writing in your second example would not get you good grade in writing course. Simple as that, while long enough, it is not good enough.

Depth of argument is not contradictory to good sentence structure. Or to good overall structure. The essay is not actually graded on smartness of argument, but on whether you present them well.

And yes, writing courses focuse on writing elements of text. Just like programming assignement focuses on coding and less on your work being useful.

----------

What you did there is trying to hack writing assignment. It typically does not work, teachers are typically not that dumb. They would however simply call that "bad writing" or "did not put in effort" rather then flattering "hacking the text".

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by sdan on Friday December 27, 2019 @08:01AM (#21891085)
This can definitely play a role. Over the past several semesters all I've been doing is writing whatever the teacher wants to hear: their interests, political leanings, ideologies, everything.

Why? Because it works and because I'm trying to "hack" the system, in PG's words.

Back to the point, I think some students may very well just write whatever they think the teacher wants to hear and compounded with those extra credit points, you get selection bias in it of itself. The teacher may have a point, but maybe take it with a grain of salt.

As a teen I see a ton of people using their phones constantly and decided to go cold turkey after my junior year (no social media except twitter to stay up to date with ML research and HN for cool articles). Now instead of spending time addicted to whatever everyone else is, I spend a ton more time coding and learning cool stuff.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by r_singh on Friday December 27, 2019 @04:58AM (#21890306)
Going to school and college in India, I always thought it would be better in the west, where I assumed teachers would, on average, be more open minded towards different opinions from students.

Cause bias against opinions expressed in writing assignments was a concern I had too.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by vorpalhex on Friday December 27, 2019 @11:02AM (#21892027)
For me it depended heavily on the professor. Some marked me down almost assuredly because I argued against their preferences. Then again, one professor would keep running arguments in their grading of my papers just to end it with "Disagreed with everything you wrote, excellent arguments. A"
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by WalterBright on Friday December 27, 2019 @05:44AM (#21890510)
I just avoided classes that had writing assignments because I was tired of having to ape the teacher's opinions.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by salawat on Friday December 27, 2019 @10:55AM (#21891979)
I have never really felt compelled to "ape" a teacher's opinions.

Demonstrate a sufficient and working understanding of? Yes; which I guess could be considered aping. However I can't recall a time I've been outright penalized for challenging a teacher's take as long as some greater mistake in making my case was not at the same time undertaken. For instance, the misapplication of logical device, or tortured cherrypicking of data/context.

I've never professed to understand why many people view academia as an institution in which the end goal is to agree with the professor for the grade. I've always treated it as an institution for the search for answers to questions where the searching for good questions is arguably more important and more difficult than finding the answers. I can't count the number of times I've felt dejected because I've had an armload of data or observations that are somehow related, and I've not been able to do anything but stew in angst because while there was some meaning to it, I could never figure out how to formulate the question to which the observations were the answer.

Then again, I stuck around long enough for my Bachelor's, then got out. I might not have gotten to the point where there is a much higher stake in tipping the Professor's Sacred Cow.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by WalterBright on Friday December 27, 2019 @04:40PM (#21894928)
> I've never professed to understand why many people view academia as an institution in which the end goal is to agree with the professor for the grade.

I didn't believe it either until I experienced it personally.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by chmod775 on Friday December 27, 2019 @05:48AM (#21890529)
I often had opinions very unlike those of my ethics teacher and she gave me decent grades anyways as long as I made reasoned arguments.

Depends on the subject really. It's probably not a good idea to try any stunts in history etc.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by sdenton4 on Friday December 27, 2019 @08:48AM (#21891281)
You might enjoy this song, "how I failed ethics" by the magnetic fields.

https://youtu.be/Hu5dEXZ7DOY

  "Though majoring in Visual and Environmental Studies
  And minoring in History of Sci
  I had to retake Ethics from my Mennonite professor
  For whom my skepticism didn't fly.

  "The first time I made mincemeat of the standard propositions
  Establishing a so-called moral science
  And I declared morality an offshoot of aesthetics
  And got a failing C for my defiance."
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by awild on Friday December 27, 2019 @10:28AM (#21891823)
It sounded like the papers were ungraded. Which is something I encountered a few times in philosophy seminars and really appreciate.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by WWLink on Friday December 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#21892891)
I had a class or two taught by a teacher like that, but the majority of the time this wasn't the case.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by analog31 on Friday December 27, 2019 @12:23PM (#21892616)
Today, students should write "to please" future employers and social credit rating algorithms.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by chinesempire on Friday December 27, 2019 @07:32AM (#21890965)
> My experience with education is that you are often forced to write in order "to please" the teacher

It, honestly, doesn't sound true.

Teachers have ego, yes, but they also can recognise value in student's work, even if it doesn't please them.

Of course the wrong answer is wrong, even if the student put a lot of effort in it.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by Spooky23 on Friday December 27, 2019 @08:48AM (#21891283)
Many students interpret bad grades in writing assignments as bias on the teachers’ part. That can happen, but more often the position or argument expressed isn’t necessarily derived from knowledge.

Aping the teacher/professor is the fast path, not only for the purposes of being agreeable, but because the argument is well thought out at some level. Part of the educational processes is being able to make an argument that you don’t agree with.

Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by will4274 on Friday December 27, 2019 @01:06PM (#21892970)
Humans are able to fill in the blanks on arguments that they already understand and do so implicitly without even noticing. So, if you make an argument the professor agrees with and is familiar with, you can skip steps, and the professor will still grok it. If your argument is novel or unfamiliar, missing steps appear as logical leaps, even though those same missing steps appear as extraneous detail to somebody already familiar with the argument.
Re:I asked my students to turn in their cell phones and writ... by chinesempire on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:07PM (#21925113)
> If your argument is novel or unfamiliar

... you probably are a genius!

Students usually talk about things they don't know, understand or can relate to (yet).

Or, as Alan Kay put it

> Socrates didn't charge for "education" because when you are in business, the "customer starts to become right". Whereas in education, the customer is generally "not right"