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Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by fzeroracer on Saturday December 21, 2019 @05:12PM (#21853635)
You have to keep in mind for these companies keeping the customer happy is not the intent. It's merely a coincidental side effect of any potential profit seeking they do.

The only people they really care about and are accountable to are the shareholders and investors. And they want infinite profit at the sake of everything else. If you want to solve this problem then you need to remove them from the equation entirely because given enough time they will run a company into the ground and run away with the proceeds.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by yummypaint on Saturday December 21, 2019 @05:31PM (#21853701)
All publicity traded companies are the same. The only distinction is the means they use to make money at first. Making money is the only goal, and shareholders demand growth quarter over quarter. This is why the fate of successful public companies is to become broader in scope while leveraging anti-competitive practices. The possible end results are either that the company is killed off, or that it effectively becomes the government or otherwise forces its host country into in oligarchy.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by colonwqbang on Saturday December 21, 2019 @06:42PM (#21854023)
Blaming the share holders for something like this is a bit weak.

Share holders of a big, established company want long-term and stable profit. Short-term profit at the cost of increased risk is not something that share holders of a company like Boeing are looking for.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by Spooky23 on Saturday December 21, 2019 @06:57PM (#21854103)
Shareholders are the strawmen used to justify what passes for modern business philosophy.

There’s an almost religious belief in whatever keeps the analysts happy this quarter is the right move. While this is done in the name of the shareholder, it happens to align with the compensation of the managers and directors making that decision.

I see Boeing as a defense/aerospace version of HP, GE, or IBM. In the case of Boeing, management went so far as to move a couple of thousand miles from most of the company. All of these firms chose to put themselves on the path to decline, and did so in a way obvious to anyone who looked closely.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by TazeTSchnitzel on Saturday December 21, 2019 @06:56PM (#21854096)
In theory they should want that, but if the company spends money on preparing for the future and its profits decline as a result, then the share price drops. The incentives aren't there.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by sokoloff on Saturday December 21, 2019 @07:48PM (#21854353)
If short term profit drops but the consensus DCF of future activities rises, the share price is likely to go up. (That’s where preparing for the future creates shareholder value.)

On the other side, it happens all the time that a company has a single blowout quarter and the shares fall.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by nradov on Saturday December 21, 2019 @09:47PM (#21854827)
Amazon would appear to be a strong counter example. Investors are happy to tolerate low short-term profits as long as management has a credible plan to increase long-term profits.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by pcurve on Saturday December 21, 2019 @05:56PM (#21853810)
"Making money is the only goal, and shareholders demand growth quarter over quarter"

I think shareholders of Boeing would also expect stable growth through sound risk management

Nickel and diming on safety features and training is playing with fire.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by perl4ever on Saturday December 21, 2019 @05:46PM (#21853762)
Shareholders by definition are not short term investors. Short term investors own bonds, short term ones to be specific. So it makes no sense that shareholders are scapegoated for everything. Even if someone trades in and out of Boeing stock in a millisecond, the existence of someone to sell to depends on people having an indefinitely long view of the company.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by p1necone on Saturday December 21, 2019 @07:08PM (#21854168)
Why do large publicly owned companies optimize for maximizing the next quarters results at the expense of everything else then?

Perfectly rational investors with infinite lifespans might do what you say, but in reality most people are fickle, short sighted and don't actually do much thinking.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by baddox on Saturday December 21, 2019 @08:25PM (#21854504)
How do you even define “optimize for maximizing the next quarters results at the expense of everything else”? Obviously big companies don’t literally do this. I’m pretty sure every big public tech company is currently spending money on products that will not be released before the end of the next quarter.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by codys on Saturday December 21, 2019 @09:27PM (#21854747)
Big companies make decisions all the time that harm long term prospects (sometimes in ways that are difficult to measure) in favor of obvious short term gains.

As an example, when I worked for IBM, they furloughed the entire Systems technology group (essentially the folks working on things that aren't pure software or contracting) for a week.

This was done purely to reduce the payroll for the STG so that it's income would look better on the quarterly earnings.

Neither the inability to get anything done for 2 weeks (furlough was staggered so only approx half of folks were out each week) nor any of the follow on effects on project or work force was not enough to impede this type of roughshod pursuit of quarterly accounting numbers.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by baddox on Saturday December 21, 2019 @10:00PM (#21854878)
Sure, but now the claim is simply that companies focus on varying time scales, and sometimes those time scales are shorter than what some people would like to see. That’s fairly clearly true, but it’s a very different claim than that big public companies optimize for the next quarter over everything else.
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by perl4ever on Saturday December 21, 2019 @10:38PM (#21855020)
Note that this is unrelated to my (original) comments and I wasn't expressing an opinion on whether companies "optimize for the next quarter".
Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by perl4ever on Saturday December 21, 2019 @11:10PM (#21855127)
Sure they do, but people can and do get just as angry when companies ignore short term harm with the promise of long term gains. So the issue isn't short term vs. long term, but rather being right vs. wrong and honest vs. dishonest. It's really hard to always be right.

I mean, if you want "long term thinking", does that mean that WeWork is a better model than Boeing? Because people seem to hold it up as a failure of capitalism just as much.

Re:Boeing push to make training profitable may have left 737... by perl4ever on Saturday December 21, 2019 @10:34PM (#21855004)
I'm not saying stock investors take a long view in some absolute sense, I'm just saying they obviously inherently take a longer view than any other stakeholder.

A bond holder doesn't get paid their interest payment, it's a crisis. The government doesn't get the taxes due, it's a crisis. An employee doesn't get their paycheck, it's a crisis. Dividends are an "if we feel like it" thing. Many, many companies simply say "we have never paid any dividends and we may never pay any at all".

Stockholders by definition can only rely on the nebulous entire future of a company for stock value - either it will be sold some day for $X, or the dividends will total $X. That's a longer term perspective than anyone else has.