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Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by javajosh on Monday December 16, 2019 @01:40PM (#21805715)
>I really dislike that so many of the US domestic charities are religiously driven.

In fairness, many of them are very good. The Mormons, for example, have always impressed me. I had a friend who grew up in Menlo Park, fell on hard times, and ended up in Utah. The Mormon community there was very supportive in substantial ways, and although they did evangelize, I hear it was pretty mild.

But yeah, it's...evil when a religion gets transactional with it's charity.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by Someone1234 on Monday December 16, 2019 @01:53PM (#21805849)
> But yeah, it's...evil when a religion gets transactional with it's charity.

Getting transactional with charity is the whole point. That's why religious organizations often fight against public programs instead arguing that religiously affiliated charity should take its place (receiving public funding to do so in many cases).

Utah in particular loves to under-fund programs, and let the church pick up the slack. The benefit to them is that it is both transactional, and allows them to exclude as they desire.

The Mormons might be nice, but they shouldn't be getting public money to provide public assistance. They should be cut out entirely and taxes should fund these programs directly and fairly.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by dundercoder on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:21PM (#21806123)
As far as I know, they don't get any public money[0]. It comes from donations from their membership.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_The_Church_of_Jesu...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by creyes on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:27PM (#21806195)
But they're tax exempt - which is kinda like getting public money. Or at least, not paying money other businesses have to pay
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by colejohnson66 on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:44PM (#21806404)
So you want to remove separation of church and state?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by mercutio2 on Monday December 16, 2019 @03:05PM (#21806623)
I don't think that's a charitable way of interpreting the comment.

Mormons as a rule are very generous with the church, and often with church affiliated charities. If the deduction for charitable giving was removed, the Mormon church would do fine, and likely so would many of their charitable activities, and it would seem more like separation of church and state to me.

If the charitable giving deduction were removed, I guess I agree that at that point there wouldn't be a way to argue (from a constitutional perspective) against Mormons in Utah voting for low levels of government support.

As it happens, I'm not convinced the "all charity should be provided by religious institutions in Utah" narrative for Utah voters is actually accurate; Salt Lake City at least is fairly generous with the homeless, at a government level.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by kortilla on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:17PM (#21806092)
> Utah in particular loves to under-fund programs, and let the church pick up the slack.

But does Utah give that money to the church programs instead? It’s not clear from your comment.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by javajosh on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:36PM (#21806311)
Cynicism like that makes me sad. Cynicism is one of those weird attitudes that totally justifies itself. It is the psychological interior of the "defect/defect" Nash equilibrium. It's saying "Oh yeah, all politicians are liars, all charity is a scam," which tends to produce a world where all politicians are liars, and all charities are scams. When an exception occurs, the cynic says, "Yeah, that honest politician is going to get eaten alive by the liars; those selfless charities are going to go bad someday, out competed by the transactional ones." And everyone who believes this makes it more likely that it is so.

But spirituality is quite real, and there are those who really believe in selfless giving without expectation of anything in return. Lots of people. They exist in the "cooperate/cooperate" equilibrium, and honestly, it's better there. It's not that you don't see the cheating, the greed, especially in the name of charity, its just that you're choosing to do something different, something that feels more wholesome. (I say this as someone who's served a bunch of meditation courses, and really enjoyed it.)

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by Someone1234 on Monday December 16, 2019 @03:19PM (#21806752)
You sidestepped actually addressing points made.

Why are religious organizations fighting public assistance programs? Why are their members arguing that a church should provide these same services instead? Your "criticise the crique" strategy isn't actually a retort, just an argument that religious affiliated organizations should be above criticism wholesale.

If religions want to stay out of politics, I'm all for leaving them be. But as it stands they're a major power broker, particularly at a local level, and therefore cannot be ignored (particularly when they're arguing for religious discrimination of public services).

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by javajosh on Monday December 16, 2019 @03:43PM (#21807010)
You said, "Getting transactional with charity is the whole point." I disagree. It's the point for some, but not all religious charities. It is wrong to paint all with the same brush. I won't comment on the Mormon relation to the state; I know only about their relationships with some individuals.

My other point was noting the cynicism behind your view, and why I think there are better options.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by munk-a on Monday December 16, 2019 @01:49PM (#21805806)
Yea, I used to work in a soup kitchen regularly with a group from my church, a lot of the work and the people doing it are great - but we didn't evangelize and I think that's how it should work. As a religious organization feel free to support charities and note that your organization accepts people from all walks of life - even include pamphlets if you'd like... but the aggressive evangelism is where it gets weird - if dinner and shelter that I require to live is contingent on me accepting religion then that shifts religion from a freely associated faith into an exchange.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by PaulHoule on Monday December 16, 2019 @01:56PM (#21805879)
Same here. I volunteered at Loaves and Fishes and it was not a place where people would force religion down your throat if you didn't want it.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by FisDugthop on Monday December 16, 2019 @03:54PM (#21807083)
See, that name sounds like religion-down-the-throat. When I was younger, and I volunteered at a food bank in (let's call it) Foo County, it was called "Food for Foo County". Ambiance matters.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by AnimalMuppet on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:28PM (#21809587)
That is about the minimum possible religious content, so little that many people would not even notice. And you regard that as "religion-down-the-throat"? I would suggest that you are a bit hypersensitive.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by reaperducer on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:15PM (#21806069)
But yeah, it's...evil when a religion gets transactional with it's charity.

Not all religions do. Catholic Charities, for example, doesn't care what religion you practice and does not try to convert people who seek its help.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by charia on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:39PM (#21806351)
This is very, very, very dependant on your experiences. My family is from India and they've told me some fascinating stories of the lengths some Catholic charities and churches are willing to go to convert people.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by philsnow on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:54PM (#21806517)
reaperducer is referring to a particular organization named (confusingly) Catholic Charities https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by filmfact on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:30PM (#21806233)
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by kgwxd on Monday December 16, 2019 @03:00PM (#21806582)
If your friend is a straight white male, and the only example you have real first-hand stories of, it might be best to reserve judgment. I don't have any personal experience, but I think there's plenty of historical evidence to support defaulting to a suspicious position on that particular organization.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by dwnvoted2hell on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:01PM (#21805948)
I don't know. If I had to listen to a spiel to get a meal, I think that would be okay. Beats prostitution any day of the week. And it's still way above selling plasma.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court keeps ruling barring prosecution for s... by woah on Monday December 16, 2019 @04:59PM (#21807782)
Yea but it’s not charity in that case. It’s paid promotion