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Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by oceanplexian on Monday December 09, 2019 @10:01PM (#21749213)
I know you said this with some degree of sarcasm, but for the vast majority of people, you are right on the money. A bachelors degree does not only “contribute no value” but in fact leaches value from the economy. I work at a FAANG with no degree, and the reason I did so (In my 20s) was because instead of wasting my time in a classroom, I was out in the workforce working on real business problems at a telecom since I was 16, in a field where educators are 10-15 years behind reality. Most of the cutting edge work at Google or Facebook or Amazon is not public information, so how the hell would a college even teach that? It’s under NDA. Same as Ma Bell and the extraordinary innovations that came out of the telecommunications industry.

A degree doesn’t just steal value in terms of money, which puts you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of compounding debt, but it also steals your time, and indoctrinates you into a top-down style of learning. Your time, the most valuable asset in the world, could be spent solving real problems in the real world. The whole system is a scam, and I’m truly sorry for those who have fallen for it.

My advice would be to cut your losses and get into entrepreneurship or work for a company that interests you ASAP. Life is too short to participate in someone else’s profit centered system of learning (Doctors and Lawyers excepted, but only because the level of gatekeeping in those fields is so high and perverted, and backed by government, that learning only via apprenticeship has literally been outlawed)

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by MaximumYComb on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @12:32AM (#21749873)
For a lot of people, going to college is going to be a great opportunity. Not many people can simply leave school at 16 for a meaningful job that gives top tier work experience. You need to live in the right area and either get really lucky or know the right people. A lot of things need to line up well for you. A bachelor's degree is guaranteed if you can pay for it and pass the units, something that doesn't need as much of life to line up perfectly for.

Within a couple of years of starting my CS degree, I was far better at programming than every hobbyist programmer I've met. I didn't have many opportunities out of school. I was from a poor country town that topped the state crime statistics. I know my mum hadn't finished high school and I don't think my father did either. I joined the military, got a trade and went to university at 30 as a single father working full time. University changed my life for the better, gave me a lot of tools and made me much more valuable.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by wallacoloo on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @02:21AM (#21750391)
For real. The information you learn on-the-job v.s. the information you learn in academia is a Venn diagram where _maybe_ 50% overlaps, but that doesn’t mean the non-overlapping bits were useless. Having a broad background gives you tools to draw on and helps you see ways of framing things that could massively simplify the problem you’re facing.

I can’t imagine I would have developed the concept of LTI systems outside of academia (EE), nor realized how much of signal processing tasks can be deconstructed to just convolutions or correlations, but these modes of thinking have proved powerful in my early career and especially as a hobbyist.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by PretzelFisch on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @05:21PM (#21757515)
I am not sure this is true. Maybe 25% overlap. Going to college allowed one to build a network. This network is what provided most of the value over time.

When in the workforce one can pick up a skill/s, from a technical institutes or college extension programs. These programs focus directly on educating for an area focus with relevant industry experience and problem sets.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by mantap on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @07:20AM (#21751769)
I went to university but I didn't study CS, I studied mathematics. I don't think I'd be a better programmer if I'd studied CS. Am I glad I went to university? Yes, but frankly it's nothing that you couldn't learn out of a book for a lot less money.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by saiya-jin on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @05:41AM (#21751327)
Man, I get where you are coming from, and good for you all your success. But your opinion is so extremely narrow it doesn't mean much for most of the world. You might step out of your IT bubble from time to time, real world and real people are much bigger spectrum than you seemingly understand.

Reasons are more than I can cover in one post - gatekeeping is real, very super real in most well paid jobs. Nobody hires new accountants, managers, electricians, architects, any kind of engineers, and many more without school. Nobody is going to give them expertise coming from job required to grow. Not all jobs are learnable just from online tutorials and books. You don't want to have your house built by guy who aced some online architecture test but has no degree, do you.

You were lucky and seemingly very talented. That is great, but not a usable advice for maybe 95% of the folks. I don't like how things are, but currently they are like that all around the world and there is no change coming soon.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by pingyong on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @09:39AM (#21752819)
>You don't want to have your house built by guy who aced some online architecture test but has no degree, do you.

That's not really the primary problem I think, I gladly would. But what I would like even more is an entity (probably a company) that has enough assets that if something goes wrong with the house I can get compensation from them. And this company probably isn't going to hire that guy. That's where the actual problem is.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by snowwrestler on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @01:31AM (#21750199)
This is a great point. The vast majority of people should simply get a job at a FAANG in their 20s with no degree, rather than wasting their time in a classroom.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by danans on Monday December 09, 2019 @10:10PM (#21749252)
> Most of the cutting edge work at Google or Facebook or Amazon is not public information, so how the hell would a college even teach that?

This is a highly questionable assertion, given that these firms largely recruit candidates from CS degree programs to staff their most cutting edge projects.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by enitihas on Monday December 09, 2019 @10:53PM (#21749445)
The people directly recruited from CS programs to work on cutting edge projects on these companies are going to be PhD, not graduates. I can't fathom any of the above companies inviting an undergrad to work on their cutting edge projects, in doing anything but the most boilerplate of work.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by snowwrestler on Monday December 09, 2019 @11:09PM (#21749516)
Ok, but good luck getting a Ph.D. in computer science without first getting a bachelor's degree.

The point is, it's silly to condemn the value of college by waving around employment in a company that is well-known for recruiting from top-tier universities.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by username90 on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @01:19AM (#21750123)
> I can't fathom any of the above companies inviting an undergrad to work on their cutting edge projects, in doing anything but the most boilerplate of work.

Computer science is still a young field with low-hanging fruit everywhere, all you need is a very bright person who knows the basics to make meaningful contributions on cutting edge projects because the "cutting-edge" isn't that sharp yet.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by P_I_Staker on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @10:47AM (#21753511)
You are simply wrong. WTF is with all the misinformation in this thread? Of course, the big tech companies staff their projects, yes including cutting edge stuff, with BS grads. Maybe they'll expect you to do some grunt work too starting out, but that's just life. You're going to pay your dues, even if you skip college (possibly even more so)

It's not just them either, there are tons of non-FAANG jobs that pay very well and do cool things, that recruit recent grads. There isn't even consensus in the industry that further education is valuable; sometimes people don't even trust those that go this route (I think this is a bit harsh, but it's due to bad anecdotal experience).

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by dbcoder1 on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @07:30AM (#21751817)
This is just false. I went to an ivy+ school and have countless peers with just a bachelor's degree that work on cutting edge projects for data science, systems engineering, autonomous vehicles, etc.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by filoleg on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @03:42PM (#21756641)
This isn't questionable at all imo. College is supposed to teach you the core fundamentals, using which you should be able to learn all that other stuff.

Straight out of college, I was hired to write code in a language that didn't even exist when I started college. Why? Because those companies rely on students learning more than just "language A". They want quick-learning generalists who can pivot to any tech or language if there is a need. And I can safely say, I definitely learned all of that stuff in college, and I am very thankful for the very solid understanding of CS fundamentals that have carried me in the industry over the years.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by Mvandenbergh on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @07:33AM (#21751836)
Sure but that is assuming:

The very best case for the non-college trajectory which is that you were able to work on real, cutting edge problems from your entry into the workforce and had the discipline to learn the important parts of CS fundamentals required to work on them.

The very worst case of college education - doing only the required for the degree, no side projects, industrial placements, or advanced topics.

Yes, a good autodidact doing genuinely interesting work is going to be a more valuable contributor at 22 than someone who has spent the last four years doing a CS degree by the numbers. That's not a good example because those are two different people. Many people who enter the tech workforce at 18 may spend years doing paint-by-numbers business applications using a single set of tools, those people aren't going to FAANG jobs.

Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by Buge on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @02:32AM (#21750440)
There was no sarcasm that I can see. snowwrestler was earnestly saying we should doubt that "bachelors degrees contribute no value".
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by P_I_Staker on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @10:37AM (#21753412)
I agree with everything except for your advice. For the vast majority of people getting into tech, college is probably the right answer. Basically, to go with the system, and accept that you're being taken for a ride (being scammed). It's the most common-sense way to get your foot in the door, even if it's "pay to win". Colleges end up being the gatekeepers and selling a product (you), usually to companies that are already satisfied with it.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by galfarragem on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @04:53AM (#21751108)
As anecdata, my most successful peer from school and college is a guy who didn't finish HS and calling him, at that time, an average talent (even in soft skills) was sympathetic. He happened to start working in a software company around 1998 doing menial work and today he is a continental sales manager. By the other hand I have several bright and hard working peers that are struggling in life despite having (anachronic) master degrees.
Re:College-educated workers are taking over the American fac... by dbcoder1 on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @07:33AM (#21751833)
Education aside, I find that just the network of people I made from going to college was worth the cost.

While focusing on developing marketable skills should be the top priority of students, there are a lot of other values that a college experience provides.