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Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Saturday December 07, 2019 @05:52PM (#21733132)
I've met Gergely, the author, a couple of times a while back and he's a great guy and I think we work in a similar way. In the majority of my roles I was initially hired as an engineer but then moved to engineering management and the points highlighted in the article are very familiar.

I often found that features would be requested from product owners/business and developers would implement it no questions asked but at lunch time, developers would rant about the requested feature's value. When asked if it should be brought to the PO's attention, I often saw the attitude of it not being their problem, they're getting paid either way (whether that's a company culture issue, general developer apathy, or burnt by past experience of questioning management is a different question). I think product-engineers feel a bit more invested in the product and have the soft-skills to influence or provide feedback in a manner conducive to business listening.

In my teams, I try to foster this type of communication and I've noticed a lot more developers opening up and providing valuable product-orientated feedback which often has an upward positive spiral of them feeling more appreciated and speaking more. Naturally a lot of engineers still want to just code and go home but team culture can really highlight and encourage engineers who may not be confident to speak up initially.

Ironically, as someone with more engineering experience on paper, it's been tricky to find a job directly as any form of product or engineer manager, I always had to go in as an engineer then be promoted after a year or so which isn't always ideal (or referred via a friend). I feel Product and Technical skills are still often considered mutually exclusive a lot of the time but I think that's inertia from when technical skills were still considered a cost to the business.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by LegitGandalf on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:09PM (#21733238)
>I try to foster this type of communication and I've noticed a lot more developers opening up and providing valuable product-orientated feedback which often has an upward positive spiral of them feeling more appreciated and speaking more

I guarantee engineers love working for you because of this. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs you are filling that esteem portion that is really lacking for a lot of software engineering teams in the wild.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:18PM (#21733292)
Thank you, I like to think so. A lot of how I manage my teams come from my experience as an engineer and seeing all the approaches that demoralised my friends and colleagues.

A lot of it isn't a complex secret, it's really doing what you pointed out - make people feel appreciated, listened to, and actually part of the company as a whole as opposed to just a resource. This can be as simple as being more transparent as to why a feature has been requested, even if it's counter-intuitive to reason, or giving context as to where the roadmap is heading so that they're aware on why they're working on something.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by LegitGandalf on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:32PM (#21733366)
I've run into so many people in organizations who look at me like I'm from another planet when I start asking "why".

As an engineer I've always found that knowing why, knowing that there is a real customer out there who really wants what I'm making is very motivating.

So often people just come to me because their boss told them to go get engineering to make this thing. They don't know why, and sadly, their boss doesn't know why either as it was just passed to them from an executive mandate. And there is lots of pressure to get to done ASAP!

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:50PM (#21733435)
Agreed, same experience for me as an engineer and it's often the engineers who get the blame as their output is the most tangible in that chain of command.

I believe this is why some of the best Product Owners I've worked with have some understanding of the technical side so that they can push back at the point of feature request rather than accept everything to please business/the client and lay it at the feet of engineers a few weeks down the line.

For this reason, I think the engineering manager/technical product owner type of role should start becoming a bit more common especially in startups, where I've seen first hand, POs brought in who subsequently drive products into the ground that were initially engineering led (and which raised the investment in the first place).

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by galangalalgol on Saturday December 07, 2019 @11:30PM (#21734340)
I don't understand this at all. The first 18 years of my career I never saw any boundaries between those who spoke to customers and designed the software and those who wrot it and I those who tested it. It was always encouraged to fill all those rolls. People who were good at the why got helped up to speed on c++ and the stock programmers got a crash course in domain knowledge an a refresher on the bits of relevant math. Only in the last couple year have I started meeting programmer that didn't wan to learn the domain, and started feeling pressure that because I do (now) uderstand the domain, I shouldn't waste my time programming. We made better software when we were all expected to be multi discipline.
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by Nursie on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:12PM (#21733257)
Conversely, when such feedback and communication is overlooked or ignored, over and over, engineers often stop giving it even when they are interested.

POs in my recent experience could benefit from listening more to their developers, who often know the domain much better than they do. (Or perhaps the wrong people are becoming POs)

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by abright on Saturday December 07, 2019 @09:53PM (#21734095)
This, I've gotten pretty fed up with my current company because management just hands out work with no real explanation. Even more frustrating is that any significant technical design work is done in closed door meetings where the only people invited are development and product managers.

I've stopped giving feedback and I'm nearly at a point where I've stopped being interested. It frees up my mind and motivates me to work on my own projects on nights and weekends so I can actually have a say.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Sunday December 08, 2019 @05:37AM (#21735251)
I've had this happen to me and seen it happen as a third party. It's a cultural issue and whilst I can see that difficult to change in large companies, startups with this mentality often demoralise developers quickly IME.

This is often how waterfall projects are/were run in large companies historically but now companies want agile everywhere but they don't implement the right processes to facilitate it. You end up with behind closed door decisions, promises made by PO that it will be done in the next sprint, and at no point has anyone with either the courage or technical know-how stepped in to point out that it's not feasible.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by the_gipsy on Sunday December 08, 2019 @07:20AM (#21735548)
I bet that at the same time they also complain that devs aren't "engaged" enough!
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Saturday December 07, 2019 @06:24PM (#21733324)
> Conversely, when such feedback and communication is overlooked or ignored, over and over, engineers often stop giving it even when they are interested.

This is true but I find if I can explain why the feedback was overlooked, that can help diminish the negative feeling. It hasn't happened often in my experience but sometimes when it has, if the idea is feasible and won't detract too much from the critical path, I would push the business team a bit harder to allow it so as to avoid the constant ignoring feeling that can happen.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by lostcolony on Saturday December 07, 2019 @11:27PM (#21734328)
Yes. I've had both, in the same company. One PO that listens and encourages input, valuing it as highly as their own opinions...and another who actively pushes back on any input, who will dig in any time a suggestion is made, etc. The latter I just stop trying.

Unsurprisingly, the former tends to get things out on time to huge success, and the latter tends to be late, and it barely scrapes across the finish line.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by plutonorm on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:03AM (#21734852)
I've been trying to get out of development for the last month. I've sent 180 CVs for business analyst roles. I've had 2 recruiters call me back, otherwise dead. This is the CV that the CTO of my last company helped me write. You don't get many ex technical product managers or business analysts because it's pretty much impossible to transition.
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Sunday December 08, 2019 @05:41AM (#21735267)
This was my experience too, and after speaking with recruiter friends, often the company doesn't know where this person would sit. The title is still quite new and whilst the job spec may imply technical, the reality often is that they still just want a full on Product person who happens to know some coding (as opposed to a full on coder who happens to be involved in product). I've generally just had to go in as an engineer and be promoted by showing them what TPM's value is first hand.
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by plutonorm on Sunday December 08, 2019 @11:53AM (#21736788)
Yeah that was my plan over the last 10 years at 4 different companies. No dice. Now I'm so burned out on programming I can't bear to try it all again. I can't go back to programming, last job I became so depressed that I was regularly thinking about suicide. Now in stuck because I can't program and no one will take me for another job. I might end up working in a super market at this rate.
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by anon84759392 on Sunday December 08, 2019 @01:58PM (#21737492)
Hang in there.

I haven't lived through a burnout yet, but I can relate to being stuck and unhirable, where your only background is in programming. No one will touch you for work in a different field because they figure you'll flee for a more lucrative dev role. No one will touch you for anything related to software, because they figure something must be wrong with you if you have the slightest gap in related employment. Devs are in such high demand, anyone good can find another job immediately, they'd say. Now you're in a self-perpetuating rut, and if you complain about it in the wrong community (not HN of course!), you just get told you must suck. It's completely demoralizing.

Went through that after graduating during the "Great Recession" and failing to find a dev position within six months of graduating. Ultimately, I clawed my way up (with a lot of help) after years of depression and suicidal ideation.

You may be headed away from programming, not back into like I was, but I really want you to take away the kind of encouragement online that I never received. Best of luck.

Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by plutonorm on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @04:20AM (#21750945)
Thanks so much. I needed some kind words :)
Re:The Product-Minded Software Engineer by keyP on Sunday December 08, 2019 @11:26PM (#21740395)
I'm travelling at the moment so please bear with me with the timings but email me at thekeyboardp "at" gmail "." com and please lets talk mate