I do want to mention very quickly that on the subject of books and movies, literally every Hollywood movie you can buy ships with subtitles for the deaf, and since ~2015 US law has required that new theaters also include equipment that provides audio descriptions for blind viewers[0]. And I don't know anyone who would seriously claim that the Godfather is lessened as an artistic expression just because deaf people can turn on subtitles.
[0]: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2016-12-02/html/2016-...
This world already exists. You're delusional if it doesn't. I use the word cruel, but you must know that cruel = reality. That's all I'm saying. 99% of the world is not designed for deaf people or blind people. There are arbitrary restrictions on certain things but this is reality and it's not going to change because engineering everything to account for these people come with an engineering cost.
It is not "pointlessly excluding," it's just not worth the engineering cost. But you know this. Any person is aware of this and the reality of the world. There is zero need to call it "pointlessly excluding" that's just a manipulative way of advocating your agenda.
>And I don't know anyone who would seriously claim that the Godfather is lessened as an artistic expression just because deaf people can turn on subtitles.
I don't know either. Did you or I make this claim? Perhaps nobody made this claim and your pulling this example out of nowhere to serve your agenda. You know video games don't account for blind people. This is purely out of cruelty of course, no way does it have anything to do with engineering cost. Obviously you don't know a thing about the cost of engineering mechanisms to get these games to work for blind people so that's why you didn't mention it. Of course it wasn't at all a deliberate choice not to mention the engineering cost to serve your own agenda.
It's not a coincidence that this design also increases accessibility -- it encodes the most meaning.
Please stop accusing everyone of being biased and having an agenda. Not that there is anything wrong with that, since everyone is biased and has an agenda (including you), but the way you're saying it makes it sound like you think it's an important component of other people's comments but not yours.
Ok first of all. There is no universal law that says everyone has to be biased and have an agenda. There's no logic to it. This false notion comes from the fact that most people (not all) people are biased and that when people are biased they are unaware of it. However this does not mean that people can't be unbiased or have no agenda.
Second: Examine the sentence in reference to that phrase. It is literally word for word referring to "engineering" and Not a specific set of engineering projects.
Literally what you are doing is inserting your own opinion onto what that "engineering" is referring to and I am taking it at face value. So I am not wrong when I say that your observations are biased. There is no accusation here, just observation of events.
Being biased is pretty much a part of the human condition since we are limited, finite beings. Do you have all the information? Are you certain you have all the information? Have you taken into account everyone's wishes, desires, needs, analyzed every possible scenario in existence according to some yet-unspecified objective reasoning system? Then you are biased. You are missing something, you are concluding something erroneously. (using the generic you as a stand-in for anyone)
Your agenda is to incorporate a pixel-level API into the web. And that's okay. Mine is to prevent the web into devolving into an opaque black box. That's okay too.
As to the topic at hand, I won't try dissecting comments word for word, because I think this is a loss of time and devolves into a lot of who-said-what, when we can sidestep it by concentrating on the most charitable explanation.
Reading through the thread again, I think the other poster's point was that there are many situations (not all) where designing things in the simplest and most direct way, using HTML as the semantic underpinning, leads to both less engineering effort and to a more accessible design.
Specifically, I do not think he was arguing doubling or tripling a movie budget in order to make another similar movie for blind people. But then again, we weren't talking about movies. We were talking about web sites, in which the loss of HTML would lead to a net loss compared to what we have now.
No. statements of observation do not have agendas. "The sky is blue" is a statement without an agenda. Statements can be made separate from agendas, which makes the statement unbiased.
>Being biased is pretty much a part of the human condition since we are limited, finite beings. Do you have all the information? Are you certain you have all the information? Have you taken into account everyone's wishes, desires, needs, analyzed every possible scenario in existence according to some yet-unspecified objective reasoning system? Then you are biased. You are missing something, you are concluding something erroneously. (using the generic you as a stand-in for anyone)
This is completely false. Biased, means a leaning of ones mind towards a particular viewpoint. People usually use this word in the context of a leaning of ones mind despite being aware of evidence to the contrary or lack of supporting evidence. If the mind does not lean then it is unbiased.
Your judgement of the statement has leaning towards your agenda despite you being aware of lack of evidence supporting it. My statement does not have leaning.
>Your agenda is to incorporate a pixel-level API into the web. And that's okay. Mine is to prevent the web into devolving into an opaque black box. That's okay too.
This "agenda" had nothing to do with my observations, but for yours it colored your interpretation of words. Your observations were biased, mine were not. This is not something that is Okay. Biased observations are usually false.
Given at face value the sentence is referring to a world of engineering with the context of the web as a specific example out of a more general point. You need to make a biased modification to the sentence in order for it to fit your world view.
>As to the topic at hand, I won't try dissecting comments word for word, because I think this is a loss of time and devolves into a lot of who-said-what, when we can sidestep it by concentrating on the most charitable explanation.
The most charitable explanation is here:
Given the original sentence we are referring to:
"You're not advocating for a bold, artistic world when you talk about engineering things to pointlessly exclude people."
The terms:
"Bold artistic world" "engineering things"
"Bold artistic web" "engineering web pages"
"You're not advocating for a bold, artistic web when you talk about engineering web pages to pointlessly exclude people."
You applied context to the statement relevant to your agenda. I did not. There is no doubt when I say that your perspective is in alignment with your agenda given lack of supporting evidence within the sentence itself. When you are biased you are unaware of it.
Definitively from the logic your statement is biased, mine is not.
>Specifically, I do not think he was arguing doubling or tripling a movie budget in order to make another similar movie for blind people. But then again, we weren't talking about movies. We were talking about web sites, in which the loss of HTML would lead to a net loss compared to what we have now.
Earlier you were rude to me. Therefore I don't care to debate this topic with you. Keep your opinion. I care little for it. If you had chosen more wisely earlier I would have gladly engaged with you on this very topic but since you chose not to, there is now zero possibility of further discussion on this topic.
No. The author wishes to convey a multimedia experience. This is evident, the page is unique because of this.
The author does not care to convey just textual information. You're just breaking down the core components of the system and picking the one that's required to have any semblance of a page. The "fun touches" are ultimately required. It's like a script vs. a movie, the movie isn't required and the script is ultimately all that's needed but nobody cares about the script do they? It's not even embedded in the movie.
>I want to be clear here -- I'm not advocating for a less experimental, uglier web. The reason you (or whoever the author is) needed to hack their way to this page is because they are over-complicating and over-engineering their UI. This page is using a CSS grid, for no reason at all. It's pulling in webGL code to render a background that could be handled with a simple Canvas. None of the elements on the page are in the right order, so good heckin luck trying to read this if you're blind. Even though, to be clear, the information this page is displaying is an ordered list of animals with some text next to them.
I have to be honest with you, and this is cruel. But when I design a page... I don't care for blind people. I don't focus my design so that it will cascade down into something blind people can read. Books don't have this property, movies don't and because of this... neither should web pages. It is not worth the effort.
>I'm not sure I agree that the state of native apps is perfectly fine. And I definitely disagree that caring about stuff like accessibility necessarily means that you can't be creative, or that we'll be holding the web back. I think that 95% of the native apps on your computer are probably text based UIs, except they've got a little bit of styling applied on top of them to turn unordered lists into drop-down menus. We have escape hatches for the web apps that are more complicated, that genuinely need to do crazy pixel-level things. Most of them don't.
I never said native apps are perfectly fine. I'm also not advocating all sites be designed with pixels. What I am advocating is freedom from HTML and CSS. If the platform of the browser exposed pixel level control with HTML and CSS only as a library and given the amount of people who hate the CSS + HTML... it's almost a guarantee that people will create sibling API's that are on the same High level as HTML + CSS but offering different philosophies. There are multitudes of UI layout languages and tools out there, who said HTML and CSS was the best, and why does it have to be the only way?
That's all I'm saying. You expose pixel level control at the core for the purpose of being able to use and create multiple high level libraries rather being vendor locked into HTML and CSS.