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Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by normalnorm on Friday December 06, 2019 @05:46AM (#21720643)
Consider all emergent phenomena that you know of. Let's say: stock market prices, ant hills, biological organisms, ecosystems, etc, etc. What all these have in common, is that they are too complex to explain in terms of individual interactions, but you can point at the individual interaction. We know that financial markets are made of transactions, of that biological organisms are made of molecular interactions, but they are too complex for us to reason in such terms.

With consciousness, the emergentists are not capable of pointing at the first principle, or building block. For me, the only coherent way to be an emergentist on consciousness is to also be a panpsychist: everything is conscious to a degree, it's just a brute fact of nature (such as, let's say, the fundamental forces).

Maybe this is the case, but I would not bet on that.

Consciousness is a phonomenon unlike any other, in the sense that scientist who study it are studying it from the inside. Science is something that happens 100% within human consciousness. This is why I suspect that it is a phenomenon that is beyond the reach of science. It could even be impossible to explain. There is no reason to assume that we can solve all mysteries.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by hoseja on Friday December 06, 2019 @06:37AM (#21720910)
Why can't they point to "interactions of neurons"?
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by normalnorm on Friday December 06, 2019 @06:48AM (#21720965)
You can point to a protein being expressed by DNA, and then understand how many protein molecules amount to cells, then tissues, then organs. There is a first principle guiding you all the way, even though the complexity is staggering.

There is no such first principle with interactions of neurons, in the sense that we know of no quality or property of a neuron that could amount to the phenomena "consciousness", in the same way that individual transactions amount to a stock market.

Without this first principle, it's just magical thinking disguised in scientific language.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by stromgo on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:28AM (#21722009)
Consciousness is a computation, and neurons are certainly capable of elementary computation.

So the building block has been pointed at (neurons), and its property given (computation). Is the problem that you don't believe that consciousness can emerge from elementary computation, or you believe that it is possible but we have no proof of it?

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by normalnorm on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:13PM (#21723792)
I have no problem with agreeing that computation can emerge from neurons. For example, one can show how different neural configurations correspond to logic gates, persistent memory (this requires recurrence) and so on. This is precisely what I mean by valid emergentist models. No magic steps, just complexity.

The problem is that you start by stating that "consciousness is a computation", but I don't know if this is true, and neither do you.

> Is the problem that you don't believe that consciousness can emerge from elementary computation, or you believe that it is possible but we have no proof of it?

My problem is that your hypothesis that "consciousness is a computation" is not testable, and so it does not count as a scientific theory (according to the standard Popperian falsifiability criterion).

Unless/until we have a scientific instrument that measures consciousness, we are just assuming things. I assume that other humans are conscious (by analogy), but I don't know it to be true in a scientific sense.

So it's not a matter of what I believe or not, it's a matter of what science can investigate or not. So far, it looks like the phenomenon of consciousness is beyond its grasp.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by stromgo on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:11PM (#21724995)
When you said

> With consciousness, the emergentists are not capable of pointing at the first principle, or building block.

...it sounded like there were no plausible candidates. If computation is a candidate, then it's certainly something they can point at (with the caveat that it's only a candidate and not currently testable). I think if instead you had written something along those lines and avoided the words "not capable of", then hoseja and I wouldn't have reacted.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by monktastic1 on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:57AM (#21722898)
> Consciousness is a computation

This is begging the question. Consciousness is the sheer seeming-ness of my experience. Perhaps it is reducible to computation, perhaps not, but this is precisely what is under contention.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by Yajirobe on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:14AM (#21721876)
Because then you could also point to 'interactions of transistors' and claim that a computer can be conscious. But this claim has been refuted already.
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by hoseja on Friday December 06, 2019 @05:38PM (#21726725)
Why not? You just don't nearly have enough transistors and connections.
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by Yajirobe on Saturday December 07, 2019 @03:46PM (#21732446)
Because no matter how advanced of a computer hardware/software you build, you will not have a 'mind' in it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by hoseja on Monday December 09, 2019 @03:14AM (#21741112)
Do individual cells understand Chinese? What a flawed argument, it doesn't at all address the proposition that consciousness is an emergent property of computation. The guy would, stuck in his room for thousands of years, provide unknowingly the computational fabric for the a potential consciousness of the AI.
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by Yajirobe on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:50PM (#21818666)
No, individual cells don't understand Chinese. Neither would individual transistors if strong AI was possible. But that's not what the argument is about. The argument refutes the notion that you could have a complex (in terms of both hardware and software) system that implements an actual mind. This complex system could act exactly has a real mind on the outside, but would have no semantic parsing (i.e. understanding) on the inside.
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by zadler on Friday December 06, 2019 @06:27AM (#21720834)
Science does take place within consciousness, but also outside of it, since there are discreet conscious entities that can be studied.
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by normalnorm on Friday December 06, 2019 @06:52AM (#21721002)
There is only one conscious entity that you have direct experience of, which is yourself, and as far as you are concerned, all of science is contained within your conscious experience.

You (and also me) reason by analogy, and we assume consciousness in other beings, but we cannot directly observe it or measure it, in the sense that we can measure all the things on which we can do empirical investigations (e.g. an electrical field of a weight).

So maybe science takes place in multiple consciousnesses (this is what I believe, but I can't prove it), but I don't see how it could take place outside of consciousness.

Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by BlueTemplar on Friday December 06, 2019 @08:18AM (#21721500)
Why wouldn't you bet on panspsychism ?
Re:The unending quest to explain consciousness by normalnorm on Friday December 06, 2019 @08:24AM (#21721539)
It's really just a personal intuition. I don't have any good argument or explanation to offer...

For what it's worth, I do feel that panpsychism was my "natural" belief when I was a kid, until the adults told me it was crazy to believe in that. I still don't think it's crazy, and there are some people who I respect a lot who believe in panpsychism.