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Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by diego on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:20AM (#21692416)
After reading the article, I realized that if a site like HN or Reddit wanted to mitigate groupthink, they would want to limit how much an item can be upvoted or downvoted (e.g. max 5 like Slashdot did).

Apparently people really like groupthink, it increases engagement.

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by greenpresident on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:53AM (#21692693)
In my opinion, groupthink on social media is to be understood as a Keynesian beauty contest. [0]

Suppose you‘d want to determine who among a group of entrants in a beauty is the most beautiful according to standards shared by the group. Such determinations are hard to make, as every judge would usually vote according to their private norms of beauty, not the groups. One way to overcome this, would be to give a price to the two judges who are closest to the final result. In this setup, you‘d be incentivized to vote according to the norms you believe to be the overall group norm, not your individual norm. The result would be „the groups belief about what the group sees as beautiful“.

Social media such reddit and Facebook incorporates this concepts on two levels:

- At the user level, users aiming to gather likes/karma/... are incentivized to submit content they believe the group finds most useful. Of course this is why we instate voting systems in the first place, so that great content (according to the communities standard for such) is submitted. On the other hand, this incentive scheme drives unpopular opinions to the margins. Hence, fringe content is more likely to be found on sites without a like system such as image boards. There, a different incentive exists: survival of your post directly depends on engagement, so it‘s more likely to stay afloat if it’s provocative.

- Then, at the platform level, sites faced with the decision of what to show their users, also face a beauty contest: they select what is most likely to be liked. The perverse result is an eternal perpetuation of groupthink, as contributors facing a „likability selection“ are unfree in what they submit. If it’s deemed not controversial enough/not likable enough, they will wither away. So they keep perpetuating the ever same content and jokes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @10:23AM (#21693023)
Sites select content that is most likely to generate engagement they can sell to advertisers. Content that is liked turns out to be a poor strategy for that. Content that generates violent reactions of all kinds is more effective. (See also tabloid newspapers.)

Karma is a very poor proxy for post or poster value because it's cumulative.

Example: Stackoverflow has no way to distinguish between a poor post and a good post that's too recent to have acquired many upvotes. Likewise karma provides no useful distinction between someone who has been posting for years and someone who has just joined. (Also applies to Reddit and HN.)

In fact markets are perfect examples of Keynesian groupthink. The goal of most investment decisions isn't to assess intrinsic value or potential, but to second guess how everyone else in the market will estimate their ability to profit from collective average estimates of value/potential.

This leads to investment distortions where investors would rather chase potential unicorns - because of the explosive IPO potential - than invest in unexciting but solid businesses with stable but undramatic growth prospects.

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by whatshisface on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @10:12AM (#21692895)
There's no reward for up-voting a post that goes on to receive a lot more up-votes, and there's no penalty for up-voting a post that goes on to receive a lot of down-votes. Therefore the judging mechanism itself (the votes) is not subject to the Keynesian beauty contest problem.
Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by greenpresident on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @10:21AM (#21693007)
That‘s true, it‘s not present at the voting level. But I believe it’s present at the level of submitting and feed selection.
Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by ryandrake on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:39AM (#21692567)
I don’t think you can get rid of groupthink while still letting everyone vote on everyone else’s opinion. People are going to inevitably use the up and downvotes as agree/disagree buttons and boom, you have crowd-enforced “correct” opinions. If your goal is to curate quality discussion, don’t crowdsource that curation. All voting systems I’ve seen confuse popularity with quality.
Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by BurningFrog on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:58AM (#21692758)
> If your goal is to curate quality discussion, don’t crowdsource that curation.

But what other resource than the crowd is readily available to curate?

Non curated public discussions are absolute garbage, so I'll take a flawed curation over none every time.

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by hiccuphippo on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:51AM (#21692681)
What about adding separate "I agree/disagree with this" buttons? With minimal or no influence on the position/color of comments. Would people be able to say "I disagree with this comment but it makes a good point"?
Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by ryandrake on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @10:07AM (#21692844)
I liked good ol Slashdot’s system, where if you vote, you need to select a reason with a drop down menu. This tiny bit of extra friction might be helpful to discourage quick “drive-by” downvoting and brigading. Additionally, their meta-moderation system helped to make sure people were really voting in good faith. I think they were really ahead of their time in some respects.

Also, give people a vote budget so they think about whether they really need to vote. Maybe 5 votes per day. For whatever reason I can only write 5 posts per day here, so I try to use them wisely. Same should go for votes.

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by u801e on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:02PM (#21694148)
HN won't show a value below a -4 point score on a particular post regardless of how many times it's downvoted (though one could infer based on how low the contrast of the text is within that range).

In any case, the number of points for a particular post is only visible to the author of that post, so even if a post has a large number of upvotes, it won't really stand out other than being close to the top of the main thread (or subthread).

Re:Symptoms of Groupthink (2012) by msheng on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @09:41AM (#21692579)
There's still the trouble of having many maximally upvoted comments all sharing similar sentiments