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Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by netsharc on Friday November 29, 2019 @12:03PM (#21665449)
Funny how slavery is pretty abstract for the western consumer nowadays, who don't see through several layers of capitalism of "best bang for your bucks". If the factory in China has to increase its minimum wage due to laws, well, "I want to build a phone factory, I want these shareholder-profit-maximizing conditions for the workers, any takers?" (Hah, even Amazon was doing this in the US with its whole HQ2 saga)
Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by barry-cotter on Friday November 29, 2019 @06:54PM (#21667521)
Working for money isn’t slavery. Slaves don’t get to tell their bosses to go to hell and go get another job. They don’t go home for Chinese New Year and never come back because they’ve finally saved enough money for a house or paid their sister’s way through university or heard that the money’s better in another city or factory.

Slaves are property. For all the many, many awful things that are wrong in China there is no slavery.

Minimum wage laws are not economically binding in less developed countries except sometimes for the professional managerial class. They sure as hell aren’t binding in Communist countries like China or Vietnam. You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. If you can’t manage to vaccinate all the children in your country the laws may be on the books but they won’t be followed.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by tempguy9999 on Friday November 29, 2019 @01:05PM (#21665837)
I can't see any reason to downvote this, I don't think it's at all wrong.
Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by merpnderp on Friday November 29, 2019 @01:38PM (#21666001)
China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.
Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by larnmar on Friday November 29, 2019 @04:59PM (#21667076)
But crediting the CCP for bringing people out of poverty is like thanking the guy who was drowning you for stopping drowning you.
Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by Blackthorn on Friday November 29, 2019 @09:51PM (#21668223)
No other viable option? I recall the Soviet Union's entrance into communism transformed them in a single generation from a backwards nation with serfs to a nation that won the space race, despite facing two wars, one of which involved a genocidal dictator intent on completely destroying them.
Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by barry-cotter on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:06AM (#21669785)
One of the reasons WWI broke out when it did was that the German General Staff knew that within ten years they would not be able to win a war with the Russian Empire. The USSR was a lot more backward economically than the Russian Empire, as would be expected when you cut yourself off from world trade and investment and kill large portions of your educated classes.

Serfdom was abolished in 1861, so no the USSR did not go from serfdom to the space race.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by tempguy9999 on Friday November 29, 2019 @02:13PM (#21666185)
The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points).

But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point.

If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by EliRivers on Friday November 29, 2019 @02:35PM (#21666309)
It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points).

Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by cinquemb on Friday November 29, 2019 @09:12PM (#21668082)
> It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

As an example, interest rate fixing by central banks in DM countries is anathema to free markets and price discovery; yet ownership of production is privatized.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by larnmar on Friday November 29, 2019 @05:01PM (#21667087)
And this is why arguing about “capitalism” is pointless, there’s a bunch of incompatible definitions. You are using a definition closer to Marx’s, while the GP is using a definition closer to Rand’s. (Most people use a fizzier definition than either of these.)

Just let these definitional arguments go, they’re not interesting or valuable.

Re:Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim r... by tempguy9999 on Friday November 29, 2019 @05:33PM (#21667211)
Let them go and you have no definitional basis on which to argue, and then how can you engage? I can't see any debate can be at all possible like that.

As a general principle agree your definitions before you lock horns and you'll start getting somewhere, if no further than agreeing to disagree.