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Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by mytailorisrich on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:14AM (#21655736)
I find interesting that while the "right to be forgotten" does not prevent the person from being named, all the articles I have found on Google are careful not to name him (and I'm not talking about German articles, but articles in English from non-German sources).

This strikes me as self-censorship.

As an aside, it's also interesting that a person sentenced to life for murdering two people in 1982 was freed in 2002...

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by kstenerud on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:20AM (#21655762)
"Life" in Germany typically means between 15 and 25 years (and there's no such thing as stacking life sentences). Nobody is ever kept permanently incarcerated except for very very very extreme circumstances where they are considered still dangerous, and must be kept in a separate facility that's technically not a prison sentence. The goal of the justice system in Germany is reform, not retribution.

The "self-censorship" is done out of respect for the spirit of the law.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by Tomte on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:29AM (#21655804)
Your comment is basically correct, let me add a little correction:

You're talking about "Sicherungsverwahrung", which has indeed that effect, but a regular life sentence without Sicherungsverwahrung can also be indefinitely long, until the person dies.

There are also perodical checks whether the prisoner is still a danger to society or whether he can be released, but it is possible to stay in regular prison without Sicherungsverwahrung forever.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by mytailorisrich on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:52AM (#21655919)
> The "self-censorship" is done out of respect for the spirit of the law.

Or fear of being dropped by the search engines?

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by Kbelicius on Thursday November 28, 2019 @06:41AM (#21656452)
The article would be dropped from the search engines, not the publishers...
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by geek_at on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:42AM (#21655858)
In Germany and most of Europe actually you get a life sentence for murder.

Life sentence is 20 years, (a bit less if you show remorse). Unless you are deemed criminally insane then you won't come out maybe ever.

Also in the EU the name of criminals are usually not printed or published in any other way unless it's a big thing like murder of multiple people or massive fraud.

Tabloids sometimes do print the names but usually only with the first letter of their last name

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by mytailorisrich on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:54AM (#21655930)
> Also in the EU the name of criminals are usually not printed or published

That is not true at all.

Criminal trials are public and people are fully named in the media in many countries unless there is a specific court order against it (which I have never heard off except for minors).

(Germany is not the EU)

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by jonathanstrange on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:44AM (#21655876)
It's part of a voluntary press codex - or, better to say, an interpretation thereof - to not fully name suspects of crimes. Every reputable newspaper adheres to it and even a few less reputable ones, but the yellow press/tabloids don't.
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by bloak on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:26AM (#21655781)
What if he has a really common name? What if he has a rare name that happens to be shared with one other person?

I don't think naming people online is a good idea any more.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by Cthulhu_ on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:49AM (#21655899)
Being a suspect or convict of a crime does not mean you forfeit the right to privacy. We are better than that.
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by aliceryhl on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:27AM (#21655794)
A life sentence is rarely truly a life sentence in western countries.
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by glotgizmo on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:32AM (#21655811)
This is correct for the UK, however we do have something called a Whole-Life Order [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole-l...

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by mytailorisrich on Thursday November 28, 2019 @05:14AM (#21656021)
This is because of the European Court of Human Rights that prevents courts from handing hard life sentences. There must be a point when prisoners have to become eligible for parole and have the possibility of being released.

The UK has had issues about this and has had to find a way to adapt: Whole-life ordesr have to be reviewed after some time in order to give a chance of release (at least on paper).

For the same reason, e.g. in France life sentences come with a maximum of 30 years before becoming eligible for parole. What they do is then that they simply keep denying parole for prisoners they want to keep inside.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by jeremyfranco on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:34AM (#21655818)
except US, that on this matter are very far from the western culture and Cesare Beccaria's writings.
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by larnmar on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:43AM (#21655867)
So why do courts keep lying to people? Why not just be honest about sentences?
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by NeedMoreTea on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:46AM (#21655888)
It's not a lie, it's a life sentence, with early release granted by parole. They remain on a parole licence the rest of their life. A whole life tariff, i.e. imprisoned for the rest of their natural life is very, very rare and saved for the most extreme cases.

That's the UK context, but most of Europe seems to operate similarly.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by jeremyfranco on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:57AM (#21655948)
Because it's not a lie.

Justice system in Europe is not a business, like it is in US, or a way to inflict a punishment, it is a rehabilitation process: if you prove you have changed, you can benefit from reduced sentences, furlough for good behavior and/or early releases.

If you haven't, you stay in jail.

Think about the U.S. system where people can be taken to custody for murder but can bail out, is that better in your opinion?

In Italy, for example, to keep mob affiliates in jail in solitary confinement, so they can't speak with the outside, they had to make a specific law, otherwise it would not be possible within the Italian prison system.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by larnmar on Thursday November 28, 2019 @05:14AM (#21656024)
The justice system is, and should be, always primarily about punishment. Governments who forget that do so at their peril. Punishment isn’t just why we have a justice system — there’s a reasonable case that it’s why we have government at all!

Humans have a strong natural instinct towards justice — when soneone wrongs us, we want to take revenge. In a state of nature this of course leads to endless and bloody feuds, so at some point it became more sensible to devolve the job of taking revenge to some kind of king or government, to ensure that revenge is taken exactly once instead of becoming a never-ending cycle.

This worked pretty well for thousands of years, but in the last century or so it has been falling apart. Soft-headed Government types have started to believe that the actual purpose of the justice system is rehabilitation, not justice, and as a result justice is rarely if ever served. Ask victims of crime if the sentence given to the perp is anywhere near what they’d choose, and they’ll say no. And then, the sentence that is given rarely gets carried out, like this scumbag who was sentenced to life and released just twenty years later.

The right to revenge is one of the most important human rights of all, and it is utterly neglected in western societies these days. A proper justice system would have a lot more crooks dying in jail and a lot less crime being committed.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by jeremyfranco on Thursday November 28, 2019 @05:40AM (#21656145)
> The justice system is, and should be, always primarily about punishment

Not in Europe, since "Dei delitti e delle pene" (On Crimes and Punishments ) from Cesare Beccaria.

It was 1764, we were already aware of that.

Justice is not a way to inflict punishment, the sentence, as Beccaria put it "should be in degree to the severity of the crime" and should work as deterrent, not as retribution (which is usually the case in US especially the death penalty, that have the purpose of giving "an eye for an eye" to the victim's family).

> Humans have a strong natural instinct towards justice

No, they don't.

Homō hominī lupus, men are very social animals, it doesn't mean they lean naturally towards justice, they just defend their communities against other communities.

> This worked pretty well for thousands of years

It didn't actually.

That's why we constantly reformed our justice system.

Think about the code of Ammurabi, does this work in your opinion?

"If the wife of a man has been caught lying with another man, they shall bind them and throw them into the waters. If the owner of the wife would save his wife then in turn the king could save his servant."

It never really worked, especially for the regular folks, still today has a lot of flaws let alone thousands of years ago. In Italy it was legal to kill the wife that cheated (but not the husband who did the same), it was called "honor killing" and it was abolished only in 1981.

So, no.

> The right to revenge is one of the most important human rights of all

It is its greatest fault indeed.

And it is what makes USA a country where the risk of being killed by a stranger is 10 times higher than in Italy (5.63/100,000 vs 0.55/100.000), it is higher than many third world countries or countries that are at war like Sudan, Kenya, Niger, Libya, Syria or Iran.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by atoav on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:28AM (#21655802)
This is btw. normal procedure in Germany, culpits are usually not named, with the exception of boulevard media thinking they have to break that rule in some cases. If a name is printed it is usually shortened to hide the identity of the suspect (e.g. Franz M.)

This probably has its roots in the past, with Nazi lynchings were justice was just skipped and people thought they had to carry out a sentence themselves.

Although I understand the emotional conflict that arises from situations like these, it gives me actually confidence in the justice system of the nation I currently live in: if they even defend the rights of a murderer, this indicates they will also take the privacy of everybody else seriously.

Edit: I also don’t feel I need to know whether e.g. my neighbour served a prison sentence — the goal of german prisons is rehabilitation and they are actually not bad at that.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by blue_devil on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:49AM (#21655901)
>>it gives me actually confidence in the justice system of the nation I currently live in: if they even defend the rights of a murderer, this indicates they will also take the privacy of everybody else seriously.

He murdered people on a yacht - maybe he's rich? At least an alternative explanation for why his case was honoured by the highest court.

Suing in Europe is pricey and time-consuming, so I would not say your privacy would be taken seriously "by default" so to say.

Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by atoav on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:55AM (#21655932)
Sueing is pricey and time-consuming, but usually the losing party has to carry the cost, so people are more willing to sue against powerful entities if they have a realistic chance of winning
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by larnmar on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:54AM (#21655929)
He was a crewman on the yacht.
[dead]
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by bildung on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:52AM (#21655923)
What you are effectively proposing is an abandonment of seperation of powers, a cornerstone of a free society. Seperation of powers also means it not up to you to decide when an offender has finished serving his/her sentence.
Re:German murderer wins 'right to be forgotten' by albertgoeswoof on Thursday November 28, 2019 @04:34AM (#21655820)
Life means a Life sentence, as in you are never free. That does not mean you spend the rest of your life inside a prison.

This murderer will still be under supervision until they die, will have particular restrictions about how they live their life, and will be recalled to a prison for almost any minor offence. However the parole board will have made a decision that they are unlikely to offend again and so it is better for society, the taxpayer (and the individual) to allow them to live outside of the prison walls,