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Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by blockmarker on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:24PM (#21650470)
People have this idea that gun owners would stand in an empty field shooting at tanks with their handguns, and whoever won in that field battle would win the control of the country, which is quite silly. First, if enough gunmen rose up, the US would be ruined, and the tyranny with it. Sure, they can bomb any rebelling city, but those rebelling cities are their cashcows. Enough of those destroyed and the tyranny is less profitable than freedom; too many of those destroyed and the country as a whole is ruined. Even if the factories are not ruined, big population losses would be equally bad.

Or they can do terrorism. Assassinations, sabotage of infraestructure. Tyrants live somewhere, and they send their children to school. Collaborators(which probably would be civil servants, police and the army) also need to sleep somewhere and have children and family. They could just be shot while going home, or killed by IEDs while patrolling. Infraestructure is much easier to destroy than to repair. Killing the power grid or destroying a bridge hurts the rebellion as much or more than it does the dictatorship, but I don't think they would care much.

Having guns is also a great detterent to creeping tyranny(well, at least when the guns owners care enough to do something). If every overreach was met with hundreds of thousands of angry people with guns on Washington, they would stop overreaching.

I agree that it is quite foolish that these people support things which actually work against them, but do not understimate what hundreds of thousands of angry gunmen could do. Even if they didn't win, they would ruin the US. And making tyranny less profitable than liberty is a good protection against it.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by jascii on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:55PM (#21650796)
I would argue that all of these things can, and have been done using improvised weapons. Organising any of these things without some form of secure communication seems utterly impossible.

Contrary to popular believe, many totalitarian government do not shy away from arming their citizenry. History is rife with paramilitary death squads. What we do see in virtually all totalitarian governments is efforts to control the means of communication. I think this should tell us something.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by alwillis on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @07:24PM (#21653609)
>Organising any of these things without some form of secure communication seems utterly impossible.

The secure communication isn't the problem; it's having the commitment, discipline and the organizational operational security to use it.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by alwillis on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @07:18PM (#21653569)
>Having guns is also a great detterent to creeping tyranny(well, at least when the guns owners care enough to do something). If every overreach was met with hundreds of thousands of angry people with guns on Washington, they would stop overreaching.

I find this to be quite ironic since we now have a country run by a lawless president, who was elected with the help of a foreign, adversary and who gave a massive tax cut to billionaires and has done nothing tangible for those gun owners who voted for him.

A federal judge had to include in her ruling that presidents are not kings, which makes you think just what country are we living in when this has to be stated: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/11/mcgahn-testify-subpo...

Sure, it's not unusual for people to vote against their own interest; but what the people you described haven't realized is they are on the same side as the tyrant.

It's slightly delusional to think a few thousand gunmen in a country of over 300 million and an economy of nearly 20 trillion dollars could do what's required to "ruin the US".

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by alwillis on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @07:33PM (#21653659)
Also, keep in mind the typical urban police force has battlefield weapons the old “protect and serve” police departments of the '60s and the '70s couldn't have imagined.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by watwut on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:42PM (#21650657)
Basically, terrorism for freedom? I have hard time to find situation where it actually worked that way in the past.

If it would be that easy, ISIS would do it long time ago.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by dmix on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:52PM (#21650762)
It's more about power projection, a last resort protection level that significantly increases the bar for total subjugation, than it is a tangible strategy towards bettering the world.

Besides a lot of military and police support legal gun ownership as well and I highly doubt all of them would be choosing the totalitarian side if it came down to it so it's not entirely just civilians with pop guns vs a well-armed military.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by watwut on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:04PM (#21650888)
Huh, what makes you think army or cops would not support totalitarian side? Typically, in turn toward more totalitarian, army and cops are first target for recruitment.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by dmix on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:33PM (#21651164)
Targeted for recruitment = all will support the cause?
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by georgeecollins on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:19PM (#21651016)
ISIS was incredibly successful at beating an organized (although not great quality) military with small arms and improvised weapons. A lot of the military equipment they got was stolen. They really may have been able to take over Iraq if a number of foreign powers did not intervene against them.

I am certainly not an advocate of terrorism. But I think recent events show that it doesn't take a lot of arms for a motivated group to overcome a well armed unmotivated group. It makes me wonder what Hong Kong would be like now if 1 in 10 people owned a rifle or hand gun. Probably in the long run the situation would be much worse, but also maybe less hopeless.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by watwut on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:22PM (#21651693)
They have done that with army and army like structures, not just with terrorist tactic. ISIS in USA is limited to terrorist tactic and did not achieved all that much.

The argument I reacted to was about terrorist tactic being used to create deterrent against tyranny. Like, it talked about killing children on their way to school.

Because answer to terrorism would be more freedom or something.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by godelski on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:47PM (#21650713)
> I have hard time to find situation where it actually worked that way in the past.

US?

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:16PM (#21650994)
That was armed insurrection, not terrorism.

The difference is more than just "the winners write the history books". The methodology was different. The patriots/rebels/insurgents weren't setting off truck bombs in city centers in the hope of making people not oppose them, and not just because they didn't have truck bombs. They weren't trying to assassinate the governor. It was fundamentally a war, not terrorism.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by cafard on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:42PM (#21651255)
The minute companies of Massachusetts did constitute a well-armed militia, I would argue in the sense intended by the 2nd Amendment. They were not just gun owners, they were men trained and drilled, often with the leadership of locals who had served in two previous wars.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by shadowgovt on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:13PM (#21652193)
The US wrested control of territory from a massively over-extended empire across the Atlantic.

American Civil War 2 would be totally different.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by watwut on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:08PM (#21650914)
When? Civil war involved armies and so did war for independence. Natives lost.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by ohazi on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:54PM (#21650782)
More like terrorism as a crude form of mutually assured destruction. It doesn't have to work, there just needs to be a credible threat of a really unpleasant amount of damage.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by jascii on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:56PM (#21650809)
ISIS does not fight for freedom. It's a doomsday suicide cult.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by godelski on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:46PM (#21650699)
tldr: Guerrilla fighters have a long history of being successful.

Also to add, the US military is sworn to protect the constitution and not members of the political elite. So were this extremely unlikely scenario of revolution to arise, you would definitely see a division of factions even within the military (some pro gov, others pro people). I believe there has been sufficient evidence to believe this. American soldiers would have a hard time killing other Americans.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by pstuart on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:58PM (#21650830)
The sitting president of the US has declared that war crimes are ok as long as they serve him personally.
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by godelski on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:11PM (#21650953)
Because no US general has ever defied the president...
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by pstuart on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:23PM (#21651058)
Huh? This is completely different. He's prepping his supporters to rise up in armed revolt once he is truly cornered.

I know this risks an admonishment by dang, but this needs to be said.

Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by godelski on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:20PM (#21651672)
Wait, you think Trump is trying to start an armed revolt on the basis of him getting impeached? His favorability isn't that high... He has below a 42% approval rating. 1% of that actually rising up seems pretty unlikely. Do people not watching Fox news live in this kind of fear?
Re:The Color of Surveillance: Monitoring of Poor and Working... by pstuart on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @05:09PM (#21652663)
Yes I am. I'm not alone in that assessment.

The soundness of such a tactic is moot when one considers the subject(s) at hand.