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Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by blunte on Monday November 25, 2019 @01:48PM (#21631381)
This has been a long standing argument from a certain "trickle down" group in politics. And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong.

The economy grows when people can afford to spend. (If this spending is based on credit as was largely the case during the Bill Clinton years, then there is a later cost to pay - no doubt.) But the fact remains that when people can afford to buy things, the economy grows.

Better paid workers spend more money. People who cannot afford basic necessities actually do not blow their money on luxuries as is commonly promoted. Instead, they spend their money on housing, car gas and insurance (since there's been a perpetual movement against public transportation), and food. They're not out gambling and buying drugs in general.

What is not in doubt is that better paid workers means not quite as well paid executives. If you look at the US history, executive pay is at or near the highest multiple relative to workers compared to any time.

And while this is my speculation as I have not experienced living on 1 million dollars vs 100 million dollars (per year), I am inclined to believe that the difference in quality of life is not really terrible. Therefore, executive pay levels are not really a valid reason to suppress worker pay.

We have not even ventured into the tax avoidance that has occurred in the last 40 years. Somehow corporations and executives (and workers!) managed to survive quite ok in the 1950s and 60s, even while corporate taxes were effectively much higher.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by d357r0y3r on Monday November 25, 2019 @01:56PM (#21631468)
> And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong.

This is a strawman. Austerity isn't a cure, it's a consequence. If you spend too much and have too much debt, you can't borrow more to make the problem go away; you're just delaying the inevitable.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by FabHK on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:06PM (#21631558)
No, it's not a straw man. Austerity has very much been promoted as a cure; it was not an inevitable consequence of the economic situation.

The debate is maybe best exemplified by the debate between Krugman ("against austerity") and Reinhart/Rogoff ("pro austerity").

> Nobel laureate Paul Krugman refused to back down in a dispute with Harvard University economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff over a 2010 paper they wrote that’s been used to justify austerity in the U.S. and Europe.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-05-28/krugman-f...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr...

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by d357r0y3r on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:29PM (#21631802)
Krugman doesn't believe that there's any problem with unlimited debt, so of course, he's not going to want austerity. Why would you make sacrifices when you get everything you want, today, for free?

There are consequences for overspending and overborrowing. We don't have a way to paper over that. You can pay today or you can tomorrow with interest.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by nemo44x on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:55PM (#21632719)
> You can pay today or you can tomorrow with interest.

You can pay today or you can have the next generation pay for it tomorrow with interest.

This is what we are seeing right now. Previous generations lived on public debt and funded their infrastructure, their services, and their retirements and pensions with debt which has to be paid out of current tax payers revenues. This has left us in a situation where so much tax money is being used to pay back debt in the form of bonds, pensions, etc. This has seen a reduction in school quality, in infrastructure maintenance, public services, etc because the money isn't there to pay for these things.

And then I see young people today cheering for Warren's plan to increase benefits for the elderly, unaware that this comes out of their pocket. That this will take away their services and their infrastructure and their future.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by FabHK on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:36PM (#21631903)
You're caricaturing Krugman's view. First, he doesn't advocate for "unlimited debt" or think that there is no problem with it. He says that with the current interest rates, for many countries it would be better to take on additional debt than to engage in austerity, both in the short and in the long term. Second, he argues that the Kenneth/Rogoff paper showing some sudden onset of bad consequences at some magic level of debt/GDP is mistaken and misguided.

> You can pay today or you can tomorrow with interest.

Yes, that's how it works with individuals or households. For countries, it's a bit more complicated than that.

Finally, note that Trump's uncalled for tax cut has significantly increased US debt for basically no benefit (except enriching corporations and the very rich), while those arguing against austerity would want to incur some debt for productive purposes, enhancing growth down the line.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by andymockli on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:18PM (#21631684)
To add to your links: https://contrakrugman.com/
Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by FabHK on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:25PM (#21631761)
Thanks. It's good to challenge your views, so I'll listen in a bit. However, I must say that as an ex-libertarian (that left the creed because of its serious flaws) I am apprehensive about the neutrality of a show hosted by Tim Wood, a "Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist and paleolibertarian" (Wikipedia) that's received fellowships from the Institute for Humane Studies (funded by the Scaifes, Kochs, etc.).

EDIT to add:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Woods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Humane_Studies

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by CharlesColeman on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:11PM (#21632259)
> I am apprehensive about the neutrality of a show...

I'd also assume any show that bills itself as "Paul Krugman's column refuted, week after week!" is more of an ideological security blanket than real intellectual engagement or critique.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by andymockli on Monday November 25, 2019 @08:04PM (#21634750)
I'd personally categorize Paul Krugman as an idealogue. You might think the same of Bob Murphy and Tom Woods, but the aim was to offer a counterpoint to Krugman's ideas.

I believe you'd find the intellectual engagement and critiques within the podcast, not the subtitle.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by CharlesColeman on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @10:34AM (#21639127)
> I believe you'd find the intellectual engagement and critiques within the podcast, not the subtitle.

No, I doubt it. If they think they can refute [1] like clockwork future columns they've never seen, it's almost certain they're just rehashing dogmas for the faithful. I have better things to spend my time on than that.

[1] a very strong word, by the way

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by microcolonel on Monday November 25, 2019 @05:54PM (#21633727)
> ...from a certain "trickle down" group in politics...

Far as I'm aware, "trickle down" is a pejorative association made by people who disagree that supply-side factors are the primary determinant of economic growth; and not an actual group of actual people.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by bassman9000 on Monday November 25, 2019 @01:56PM (#21631472)
What is not in doubt is that better paid workers means not quite as well paid executives.

Something to back this, other than personal experience/opinion, would be nice.

A = better paid workers

B = better paid executives

Your point seems to be that A => ¬B. Which, even if statistically accurate, seems a bit weird as a causation.

Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by mdszy on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:15PM (#21631654)
What possible reason could you have for writing it this way and not just saying "Your point seems to be that better paid workers leads to worse paid executives..."
Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by bassman9000 on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:24PM (#21632962)
Not being a native speaker, probably not being as fluent as you in English, and not wanting to misunderstand that the OP made more complicated than needed, IMHO.
Re:Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't co... by scarejunba on Monday November 25, 2019 @02:07PM (#21631564)
True. It comes from a zero-sum game view of the company. But there are true inefficiencies that may be solved by A that make B actually more likely. For instance, if A causes lower attrition and therefore training costs, it _may_ cause sufficient higher productivity across the board for every organization as a worker gets skilled and stays in his job for longer. And that increased productivity may manifest as better company performance. It is plausible that we could have A & B.

I didn't even consider the time-axis myself (implicitly assuming zero-sum) so that's a good objection.