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Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by TeMPOraL on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:02AM (#21619644)
The "there's no such thing as apolitical, apolitical = supporting status quo" meme needs to die. It's just a slightly smarter-sounding variant of "if you're not with us, you're against us". It purposefully conflates two groups of people - people who don't engage with an issue because they like the status quo, and people who don't engage with an issue because (within reasonable bounds) they don't care which side wins. For any given issue, the latter group is usually the majority of the population - and conflating them with status quo supporters is just a malicious attempt at recruiting people for your cause.

Think of it this way: under this view, McDonald's is supporting the status quo on $whatever-issue, because it does not give out political pamphlets with Big Macs. Sitting in a toilet alone and thinking is supporting the status quo, because it does not enable others to voice their view. Etc.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by flomble on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:28AM (#21619736)
I think the problem here is that you're not seeing that 'politics' encompasses an incredibly broad spectrum of things, and the only time that something is labeled 'political' is when it reaches a certain level of controversial for the relevant society.

For example, selling a hamburger would have been an obviously political act in the Soviet Union. We don't see it as such because vanishingly few people believe that commercial transactions between private parties should be forbidden. But whenever someone advertises a hamburger, depicts the purchase of one, or leaves a review of one on a website, they are engaging in an act that we only view as apolitical because of the status quo that we inhabit.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by TeMPOraL on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:30AM (#21620619)
I do see "that 'politics' encompasses an incredibly broad spectrum of things", but I also see the motte-and-bailey argument being presented. The "politics" of everyday life is quite a different thing from the "politics" we're talking here.

RE your hamburger example, yes, it's apolitical within the context of society where hamburgers aren't political. Free trade or democracy isn't required, a hypothetical restaurant in the Soviet Union wouldn't have a problem selling grilled chicken breast. And if ever the Party decided that grilled chicken is a symbol of capitalism and therefore banned, the restaurant would just switch to serving fried chicken, or something else. Living in the status quo is not the same as endorsing it.

To me, the "not fighting status quo = supporting status quo" view is anathema to civilization. It's the peace-time equivalent of treating civilians as enemy combatants just because they live in the country you're at war with. It's an attempt to get other people to fight in your war, and suffer the collateral damage for you, and most people rightfully oppose it. If you want someone to support your cause, your strategy should be arguing that your cause is just - and not trying to get them to switch by making them believe not supporting you means supporting the enemy.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:41PM (#21622345)
I don't buy it. There are certainly times when things get politicized; when circumstances or culture invest things with political connotations they wouldn't ordinarily have. But the normal concept of "political" is, like, rants about how suchandsuch politician is evil or suchandsuch party is stupid. I'm confident most people in any culture could identify the difference between that and selling a hamburger.
Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by Faark on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:34AM (#21620636)
> Think of it this way [..]

Yes, being politically active all the time is not something we generally expect from most people / companies. Especially of the latter, since after all, their primary reason of existence is to make money for the investors.

> don't care which side wins

This is a valid political position. Probably the one I'd take for most realpolitik of small incremental changes based on occurring issues. But also one hard to justify in divisive times with diametrically opposed sides becoming highly popular, thus those extremes having an increasing chance to actually & drastically affect our lives.

That is, obviously, only if you live in a democracy were shaping politics is one of our civic duties. By the way, that doesn't mean everyone has to become experts in lots of topics. Delegating this is quite the responsibility as well.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by TeMPOraL on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:59AM (#21620782)
> But also one hard to justify in divisive times with diametrically opposed sides becoming highly popular, thus those extremes having an increasing chance to actually & drastically affect our lives.

I think it's especially easy to justify in our times, and it's arguably the sane position to take. Polarization and extremism we see in politics today is dangerous to society and democracy itself. Disengaging from various small changes that are orthogonal to you and your community is advisable, because the cost of engaging is increasingly the deterioration of individual relations with people. It's blowing up your own country from the inside.

A lot of political disengagement, including my own, boils down to this: we don't want to fight someone else's war, and we'd preferably like they didn't fight that war, because all this fighting claims a lot of collateral damage.

> By the way, that doesn't mean everyone has to become experts in lots of topics. Delegating this is quite the responsibility as well.

Delegating in modern democracies is actually one of the reasons people disengage even when they do have a stake or opinion on the topic. It's very hard to make any impact on an individual issue (not "it takes some effort hard", but closer to "winning gold on national championship" hard).

Say, for example, that I want my country to invest in nuclear power, or institute carbon taxes (both are things I currently believe in, and to make it less difficult, I'll use "or" in this example, even though I want "and"). There's literally no party in my country I could in good conscience vote for, or work to support. Not a single one. With the one party that seems to share my views on those two topics I have enough disagreements on other things that I feel reluctant to vote for them. And even if I were to put aside our differences for the sake of pushing the two issues I care about, and even if they magically won the next election, I'm very sure (based on historical experience) that they'd successfully change one or two things for the worse (from my POV), while making exactly zero headway on the issues I voted on them for.

I think more people realize this than not, hence the bad election turnouts in most established democracies worldwide. People don't believe their voices will be heard, because there's enough distortion in the middle.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by Faark on Sunday November 24, 2019 @11:06AM (#21621213)
Divisive times will cause damage. Either as the collateral you mentioned when trying to stop it, otherwise when the winning side will change society. Ignoring problems generally increases the damage they cause, so not tackling it earlier might be the bigger fault.

Sure, we can hope this will all blow over, but I don't see reliable mechanisms encouraging this outcome while I really don't want to risk another 1930s germany to repeat itself. Thus I don't see any other way than fighting for (the important parts of) the status quo. Even if it won't be easy.

> Delegating in modern democracies is actually one of the reasons people disengage even when they do have a stake or opinion on the topic.

I was rather talking about using appeals to authority/expertise when forming & defending your opinion. "I'm a for Positions A, B & C cause Person X I respect on some podcast is for it" is fine as defense. You now only have to defend choosing X instead of A, B & C individually.

Yeah, the US two party system seems especially bad. But I'd also look for other factors, since divisiveness seems to generally be on the rise. At least here in germany, with a fresh neo-nazi party worryingly drastically, even with more options available, some of them fitting e.g. your position a lot better than just "left vs right" of the US. Non the less do people still feel ignored and left behind.

Though while looking for more direct counter-examples, the 2019 swiss election does look very similar to their 2007 one. I don't feel confident to form an opinion on that datum alone without knowing the broader context. At the same time, articles about "these places manage to keep their divisiveness in check" would probably not do very well in current media and thus I'd probably not notice them in the first place.

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by rsynnott on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:43PM (#21622794)
> they don't care which side wins.

That is, itself, a political stance (and arguably a rather dangerous one; low political engagement tends to be a sign of sick democracies).

Re:TikTok: Cheerfulness and censorship by wehrkeoruw on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:29PM (#21622271)
It's not a meme, it's true. Anything that subsists on advertising and user expression is going to end up taking a stand of some kind.

If you don't want to take a stand, make something yourself.