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Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by mindgam3 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @12:16AM (#21591640)
> In this work we present the MuZero algorithm which, by combining a tree-based search with a learned model, achieves superhuman performance in a range of challenging and visually complex domains, without any knowledge of their underlying dynamics.

<rant> DeepMind "superhuman" hype machine strikes again.

I mean, it's cool that computers are getting even better at chess and all (and other perfectly constrained game environments), but come on. "Superhuman" chess performance hasn't been particularly interesting since Deep Blue vs Kasparov in 1997.

The fact that the new algorithms have "no knowledge of underlying dynamics" makes it sound like an entirely new approach, and on one level it is. ML vs non-statistical methods. But on a deeper level, it's the same shit.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, (someone please correct me if this is inaccurate), the superhuman performance is only made possible by massive compute. In other words, brute force.

But it uses less training cycles, you say! AlphaZero et all mastered the game in only 3 days! etc etc. This conveniently ignores the fact that this was 3 days of training on an array of GPUs that is way more powerful than the supercomputers of old.

Don't get me wrong. These ML algorithms have value and can solve real problems. I just really wish DeepMind's marketing department would stop beating us over the head with all of this "superhuman" marketing.

For those just tuning in, this is the same company that got the term "digital prodigy" on the cover of Science [0]. Which is again a form of cheating, because the whole prodigy aspect conveniently ignores the compute power required to achieve AlphaZero. For the record, if you took A0 and ran it on hardware from a few years ago, you would have a computer that achieves superhuman performance after a very long time, which wouldn't be making headlines.

</rant>

0. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6419

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by sanxiyn on Thursday November 21, 2019 @12:42AM (#21591728)
Okay, I will bite. It uses less training cycles. Why is that not significant? Both AlphaZero and MuZero are brute force, but MuZero is less brute force than AlphaZero, so it's heading in the right direction.
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by mindgam3 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @12:53AM (#21591767)
Sure, but both of them are more brute force than Deep Blue (unless anybody has a compelling counter argument), so we’re actually heading in the wrong direction.
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by bonzini on Thursday November 21, 2019 @02:55AM (#21592215)
AlphaZero evaluates comparably less positions per second than Deep Blue. It doesn't even reach 100k nodes per seconds of I remember correctly, while Deep Blue was in the millions[1]. Therefore, even though the training is done by brute force, the evaluation is way less "brute forcing" in AlphaZero than in Deep Blue.

Not just Stockfish on modern hardware can evaluate fewer nodes than Deep Blue and still beat it left and right; in 1995 Fritz on a Pentium was able to beat Deep Thought II at the world chess championship. Deep Blue and its ancestors, with their custom hardware, were perhaps the "most brute force" of all chess engines.

[1] https://www.stmintz.com/ccc/index.php?id=91692

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by mindgam3 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @03:03AM (#21592243)
As you yourself point out, the brute force here refers to solving a problem by throwing more hardware at it.

Number of nodes searched is not the key metric for gauging how “smart” the algorithm is. You have less nodes searched but you only got there by having way more upfront processing.

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by lordgrenville on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:22AM (#21592827)
But that processing happens just once, and then you amortize it over the software's lifetime. Play a million games and you probably come out ahead.
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by red75prime on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:55AM (#21592982)
And what is an estimation of the minimal hardware/time requirements for learning to beat humans at chess?

We need some baseline to call it "brute force".

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by anotherone16 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @11:01AM (#21595492)
Seems like ML/AI is still looking for its quantum supremacy moment.
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by sanxiyn on Thursday November 21, 2019 @12:59AM (#21591784)
It should be pointed out AlphaZero plays better than Deep Blue. I think comparing computational resource usage is important, but direct comparison only makes sense with equivalent performance level.
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by mindgam3 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @01:14AM (#21591842)
I did point this out at the top of my original comment.

“I mean, it's cool that computers are getting even better at chess and all“

> direct comparison only makes sense with equivalent performance level

This makes no sense to me. 50% increase in performance can be compared to 50% increase in processing power to evaluate level of brute force-ness.

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by summerlight on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:33PM (#21609160)
> This makes no sense to me. 50% increase in performance can be compared to 50% increase in processing power to evaluate level of brute force-ness.

Computational complexity theory taught us that fundamental difficulty of solving specific types of problems does not always linearly scale with the size of the problems. I guess the same logic applies to the quality of the output?

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by SonOfLilit on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:40AM (#21593483)
Yes, but how is "50% better" measured? On what scale?
Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by mindgam3 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @11:05AM (#21595558)
Easy. Chess uses the Elo rating system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Re:Mastering Atari, Go, Chess and Shogi by Planning with a L... by SonOfLilit on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @06:42PM (#21653297)
I mean that ELO is not linear and there is no obvious ratio operation for ELO scores. How much is better than 2,600? Is it 5,200? Is it the rating at which you'd have 2:1 odds of winning a match? (Wikipedia says 200 points represent 74% chance of winning, so somewhere below 2,800) There's just no commonly agreed meaning of "50% better Chess player".