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Re:In Defense of Latin by mumblemumble on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @06:33PM (#21579551)
The creole languages I'm familiar with tend to be at least as analytic as the most analytic of its parent languages, and possibly more analytic than any of them.

Haitian creole is the most analytic language I'm familiar with. I gather it's about on par with languages like Ewe, but I know next to nothing about Ewe, so I'm not sure on that. I don't think it absorbed a single inflection from French, though.

Modern English, arguably descended from a creole of Old English and Norman French, is less inflected as either of those parent languages. For example, both Old English and French have grammatical gender, but middle and modern English retain it only for third person singular pronouns.

I don't know much about the history of the development of the Romance languages, but I had always guessed that they are at least somewhat a result of creolization of Latin with local language groups, and, if my speculation (it's not even a hypothesis) is at all correct, that would imply that they all would tend to lose inflection, including agglutination, in the process.

So, all that said: Perhaps the reason eastern European languages are more like Latin in this respect is, ironically, because they were less influenced by Latin?

Re:In Defense of Latin by asveikau on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @06:46PM (#21579656)
Well, there was something called "Vulgar Latin" which varied by region, and I do think the biggest change was that differing pronunciations forced grammar changes as you could no longer differentiate with "silent" letters.

The loss of inflection due to final consonants no longer being pronounced explains quite a bit of things I found mysterious when learning romance languages without much Latin knowledge.

Some examples using Spanish:

* Spanish lost most neuter forms, but why does it distinguish este and esto [both meaning "this"]? Well, in Latin it was iste and istud respectively, so dropping final consonants still preserves distinct forms: iste and istu. Contrast that with most masculine/neuter contrasts: bonus and bonum both become bonu. (Hence, only one bueno in Spanish.)

* When I learned the language I was always confused why imperfect or present subjunctive first person singular is indistinguishable from third person. (eg. yo amaba, el amaba, I loved, he loved) Well, in Latin, those differed by a final consonant: ego amabam vs. amabat for third person.

Re:In Defense of Latin by jobigoud on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @10:42PM (#21580911)
But in Spanish, unlike French for example, all letters are still pronounced. So I'm not sure this reasonning holds.
Re:In Defense of Latin by asveikau on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @10:59PM (#21580981)
I think we are talking about differing times in evolving languages. All the letters of Latin are most certainly not pronounced in Spanish. That is why a bunch of words end in -o instead of -us or why no verb conjugation ends in -m or -t anymore.

At some point people in Spain stopped writing Latin and started writing Spanish, at which point spelling matched pronunciation. But that was not today's Spanish. There were big pronunciation and spelling changes around the 15th century IIRC - see this article for some hints of how it used to look and sound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish_language

The current "spelling matches pronunciation" thing only occurred because the spelling was updated when pronunciation changed. It is kind of a time capsule, needs to be periodically "maintained", not innate to the language.

Also important to note that there are places where not every letter is pronounced in modern Spanish. Eg. Many accents aspirate or omit S in some positions. Some people omit D between vowels.

Re:In Defense of Latin by umanwizard on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @12:45AM (#21581380)
A few more examples:

1) z and s, or ce and se, are pronounced the same everywhere except some parts of Spain. I guess not an example of silent letters but still, an example of a distinction that existed historically/etymologically but that no longer does in the spoken language for the vast majority of speakers.

2) The h is silent in every dialect despite having usually represented a real sound in Latin

Re:In Defense of Latin by asveikau on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @12:38PM (#21586201)
> z and s, or ce and se, are pronounced the same everywhere except some parts of Spain.

I didn't cite that because I'm already blabbing too much about this topic, and I didn't want to overwhelm people, but yes. Also, as cited by the sibling comment, the merger of /b/ and /v/. Also, in many accents, but not all, Y and LL are the same. Also, consonants like /b/ or /g/ are sometimes swallowed when followed by /w/.

Re:In Defense of Latin by schoen on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @02:27AM (#21581798)
Also <b> and <v> have merged in a lot of versions of Spanish. The <v> is postclassical but represents /w/. A minimal pair for these in Latin is bis 'twice' and vis 'force'. (Well, not quite, because of different vowel lengths... let's try bilis 'bile' and vilis 'vile'.)
Re:In Defense of Latin by mumblemumble on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @09:02AM (#21583933)
So, I can't speak to Spanish, but I can speak to French. There, the suffixes that are silent in Metropolitan French are still pronounced in some regional dialects, but the grammar doesn't really change (that I've noticed).

That leads me to think that it could just as easily be that grammar changes render the agglutination superfluous, and it subsequently withers away like a vestigial organ.