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Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:30PM (#21550354)
Seriously people - read the comment before down-voting it. A flood of down-votes coming in in less time than it takes to read what I wrote implies that you aren't even considering the argument I'm presenting.

I hate to say it, but I'm with Oracle on this - but not for any reason that I've seen mentioned (so I guess I want neither party to win).

(Notwithstanding Sun's internal excitement at Google's use of Java prior to the Oracle acquisition.)

There is a justification on the grounds of obviousness for certain method headers to be uncopyrightable.

But for inobvious and complicated method headers I do not believe that the restriction should prevent the API from being subject to copyright, but rather to limit the applicability of the copyright for fair use purposes.

Specifically I believe the copyrights on such interfaces should not be applicable where interoperability is the justification for the reuse of the interface.

Google broke compatibility with Java. I do not believe that Google is using the API under fair use constraints.

I'm not sure how the law operates here - but I believe that the precedent set by a Google victory would be more damaging to my position. I'd like to see Google lose, and for someone later - operating with cross-compatibility in mind - to present and win a fair use case for reuse of an API.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by gpm on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:34PM (#21550373)
Let's assume everything you said except the conclusion is right (I disagree with almost all of it, but for the purposes of this discussion I'll put that aside since it's better argued in the fine legal briefs).

Why does fair use for interoperability require perfect interoperability? That seems like a totally unreasonable bar. It would mean that making some fraction of an API ridiculously complex to implement a way from stopping anyone from implementing the rest of it.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:40PM (#21550398)
I'm not talking perfect interoperability - I believe that substitutability should be the bar. Google produced something that is not substitutable in either direction, so what I perceive as the reasonable fair use argument cannot be used here.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by gpm on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:42PM (#21550404)
What do you mean it's not substantial? People use the same java libraries on android and servers all the time, thanks to being able to use a shared standard library API (the supposedly copyrighted material in question in this case).
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:59PM (#21550476)
Substitutable, and no it isn't. Google deliberately broke compatibility with java, its language and its packaging.

From the UI perspective, there is actually a reasonable justification for limiting compatibility - but they went far further than what was reasonable.

They did this to prevent applications executable on any JVM from running on Android.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by int_19h on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:19PM (#21550770)
You seem to be arbitrarily setting the scope for substitutability to Java as a whole, but why? Why can't it be e.g. individual classes, or even methods on them? Two pieces of Java code pretty much never need the entirety of J2SE API to interact.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by monocasa on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:16PM (#21550530)
The JVM itself makes backwards incompatible changes. I have jars that work on earlier VMs, but don't anymore.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:52PM (#21550668)
Sure, but I'm damned certain that's never happened with the destruction of interoperability being the goal in mind.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by monocasa on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:03PM (#21550713)
The destruction of interoperability wasn't the goal in mind with Android either. Java ME sucked, and SE is somehow even a worse fit for phones. The fundamental process model destroys battery life, hence the switch in Android to that model that'll shut the app down basically at any time and allow it to save state, so it can come back to where it was later. In addition to that, an IPC system was added (which basically doesn't exist in Java ME), and a bunch of support for devices that are only accessible in Java via 3rd party libraries anyway. Oh, and the lack of swing. But come on, even Eclipse doesn't use swing.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by sliken on Saturday November 16, 2019 @12:40AM (#21551221)
Having jars only work with specific oracle JVM versions is not at all unusual.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by vageli on Saturday November 16, 2019 @09:00AM (#21552648)
> Having jars only work with specific oracle JVM versions is not at all unusual.

I think that underscores the point? That even legitimate JVM versions were not substitutable for each other.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by ravenstine on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:19PM (#21550769)
How is that supposed to be determined? By hiring more lawyers, no doubt.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by 0xcde4c3db on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:53PM (#21550446)
I'll admit that I'm not sure how the law operates here myself. But I worry that because fair use is an affirmative defense, your formulation opens the door to something like a platform vendor analog to SLAPP suits. That is: it seems like if I, as the legally anointed steward of a platform, believe that your leveraging of my API is in line with my business model, I can decide not to sue you. If you try to compete with me (even in a venue that isn't using said API), I can decide to sue you just to make you incur the cost of defense. The particular burden of platform fragmentation and how it interacts with trademark law is a pretty subjective thing, so I suppose Oracle ultimately gets to make a prospective competitor relitigate Apple v. Franklin and Sega v. Accolade and Oracle v. Google Every. Single. Goddamned. Time. They. Want.

No, sir, I don't like it.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:13PM (#21550512)
I don't disagree with you about that being a danger - but I don't think that the solution to bad faith operators in copyright is to bring the system down any more than I believe it to be the answer in patent law.

I think that the system desperately needs to more actively punish those who abuse the legal system.

If a case is found to be frivolous I belief that the plaintiff should have to pay both fines and damages. The plaintiff's lawyers should also be punished - warnings, fines and eventual disbarment.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by monocasa on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:29PM (#21550578)
What if the defendent doesn't have the funds to get all the way to the frivolous decision?
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:44PM (#21550641)
That's hard- maybe talk to the EFF (https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance)?

I'd prefer it if it didn't to come to that, and they lack the budget to do all that needs to be done, the system simply lacks enough good operators to act as a counterpoint to those operating in bad faith.

I think when you need that counterpoint at all, it's the system as a whole that needs to change. But this is getting way off topic.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by wtallis on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:36PM (#21550377)
> Specifically I believe the copyrights on such interfaces should not be applicable where interoperability is the justification for the reuse of the interface. Google broke compatibility with Java.

You cannot make good law on this basis. Requiring compliance to a compatibility standard written by Oracle would give Oracle all the power, and render that kind of fair use exception effectively impossible to exercise. There's no good way to define what kind and degree of interoperability should qualify. The only regulatory option that doesn't trivially collapse into a complete win for Oracle is for API copyrights to not exist in the first place.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:54PM (#21550452)
I think that you're making a bit of a leap here. There are a large number of JVMs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines.

Not all of which will be Oracle certified, I would argue that each and every one of them should be free to exist regardless of that fact, on the grounds of fair use.

The courts have never been black and white entities - and there has long existed the legal notions of best and reasonable efforts. Which I think should be the standard by which a competing implementations interoperability should be judged.

This also ties in to another part of another response that I had not addressed - the reasonable efforts standard would protect against being required to implement needlessly complex parts of API.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by wtallis on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:14PM (#21550520)
Postulating a "reasonable effort" legal standard does absolutely nothing to answer the more important questions about what kind and degree of compatibility should be considered the goal. Whether it's judged strictly or with some leeway, we still need to know who other than Oracle gets to decide how much compatibility with Java would be necessary for fair use to unquestionably apply.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by throwaway2048 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @12:08AM (#21551125)
The mistake you are making is assuming Oracle is, and will continue to operate in good faith, judging by their past history of rent extraction maximization, that is absolutely not the case.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:42AM (#21551825)
I know full well that Oracle isn't operating in good faith, it never has it never will - I have made no statement regarding Oracle's intention or nature (which I generally find to be malignant).

In this instance, I believe both parties to be operating in bad faith.

My position is relatively simple, and despite the hate it seems to have inspired I stand by it: A complex API is a creative work that deserves the protections of copyright, fair use limitations should be applicable based upon a need for the existence of interoperable software.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by throwaway2048 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @10:10AM (#21552984)
If you allow it to "deserve the protections of copyright" then it absolutely will be abused to ensure that inter-operation, and thus not violating Oracles copyright, is impossible.
Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by yarg on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:22PM (#21555037)
Both copyright and patent law is already abused to a significant degree - that does not mean that the protections provided provide no worth or are unjustified.

The problem is a system that rewards bad actors - and yes Oracle is one of those bad actors.

The solution is to improve the system to disincentivise bad actors while continuing to provide time limited protections to those operating in good faith.

As I've mentioned in other comments best and reasonable efforts are standards already used in the legal system - and there is no reason that those standards could not be applied to reimplementation efforts.

All of the arguments that I've seen against what I'm suggesting are based around abuse of the system by bad faith actors - I think that they can be disincentivised without tearing it all down.

Re:Supreme Court to Hear Google-Oracle Copyright Fight by throwaway2048 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:54PM (#21555224)
The best way to disincentivise bad actors is to not give them a nuclear bomb to go threaten people with.

The legal system has largely failed in constraining copyright and patent abuse, and indeed has been key in massively expanding their reach (See "business process" patents and software patents, as well as stuff like the DMCA to shut down basically anything that involves interfacing with things).

API copyright is absolutely a _new_ concept invented whole cloth by the court, what advantage do you think it brings, vs the heavy tax on literally every piece of software ever created it imposes (after all CPU instruction sets are APIs).

You have repeatedly failed to present any actual advantage it provides beyond "it was hard work". What new APIs are going to exist because of this new law, that did not exist beforehand? What is the point of even trying to design a system where supposedly only "good faith" is rewarded? (good luck with that one)

Copyright is not about ownership because you created something, it is about benefit to society, that's why it expires and the public domain exists and also does not apply to all works.