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Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:19PM (#21528287)
This comment chain is in reference to law enforcement and the justice system. I would hope that our law enforcement and justice systems are operating on real world data, rather than a hypothetical world's data.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by gamblor956 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:35PM (#21531493)
Yes, law enforcement should use this model to determine where to assign police resources to minimize crime.

The justice system should absolutely not use this system for any purposes, since justice is based on the circumstances of the individual case in front of it, not the societal statistics which apply in the aggregate but may not apply to that specific case.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:16PM (#21532176)
> Yes, law enforcement should use this model to determine where to assign police resources to minimize crime.

And if an activist engineer deliberately biased the model to avoid indicating disparities in crime, then we will have sabotaged police's abilities to allocated resources. Hence, why this assumption that disparate outcomes are indicative of a biased model is a problem

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by gamblor956 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:34PM (#21540247)
You're still not getting it.

We already know where crime is occurring. We don't need an AI model for that.

People aren't arguing about not using biased data, they're arguing that the model needs to be designed and trained so that the bias in the data doesn't affect the predictions in the model. And yes, that means deliberately de-engineering bias out of the model, which may involve introducing a counter-bias.

For example, you and others kept bringing up race earlier as a legitimate bias for criminal profiling. But socioeconomic status is far more correlated with propensity to commit criminal acts than race. A model of crime in LA based on race, for example, would assume that people in Ladera Heights are just as likely to commit crime as people in South LA because they have the same race...but Ladera Heights has a fraction of the crime as South LA (and several times the average income). Similarly, you would expect South LA to have less crime than the largely Caucasian Joshua Tree or Fontana...but both cities have higher crime rates than South LA, and for a period were some of the most dangerous cities in California. (Joshua Tree was the inspiration for, and original setting of, Breaking Bad. Fontana used to be known as the Felony Flats.)

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:01PM (#21547081)
No, I have repeatedly and explicitly stated that protected classes like race should not be used as inputs into any sort of model. The notion that I have said that we should use race as an input to a model is completely false.

What I am saying is that pointing to disparities in the outcome of these models to claim that the models are biased is not, on it's own, a reasonable conclusion. As you point out, people in Joshua Tree and South LA have higher rates of crime than average. So if our model flags people from these areas as high risk more frequently than other places, is our algorithm biased? If we deliberately make the model to produce uniform results across different locations because an engineer feels that it's problematic to have a model that produces different results between different geographic cohorts, then have we mitigated bias? No, that engineer intentionally introduced our own bias to make the model adhere to his or her worldview.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by crooked-v on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:33PM (#21528455)
I would absolutely not want the justice system to use historical statistical information without considering factors like lead exposure and past overpolicing, and even pure boots-on-ground distributions of law enforcement resources should take into account historical over- and under-policing and its effects on the statistics being used to distribute those resources.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:37PM (#21528499)
Okay, that's your position. Plenty of people do not want an AI that, say, gives parole to someone that is a high risk of re-offending because someone engineered the AI to be more lenient towards people who grew up in areas with greater lead exposure.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by crooked-v on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:54PM (#21528709)
Consider if someone grew up in an area of high lead exposure but was, one way or another, protected from it as a child [1]. Should they be treated as having the same recidivism risk factor as someone who suffered the full effects of lead exposure? If not, how do you separate the effects of lead exposure from other factors to recidivism rates?

[1] See the 1999 documentary Blast from the Past.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:15PM (#21528978)
The better approach is to define what inputs are going to be used, explicitly. Some like race and religion are going not going to be used, as discrimination on the basis of race or religion is off limits. But age, past offences, and the like probably are

But I think we're diverging considerably from the original point: that forcing an AI to produce equal outcomes despite unequal behavior in the real world is not the elimination of bias, it's the deliberate introduction of bias. If we have an AI that predicts recidivism rates, and we engineer it to produce equal predicted rates across all groups despite different between rates groups in the real world then we are deliberate introducing bias. The truth, regrettable thought may be, is that a magical AI that operates with 100% accuracy - the only people who it flags would have re-offended - is going to produce disparities because recidivism rates are not equal.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by iknowalot on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:19PM (#21532201)
I'm sure an algorithm looking at the current state of the world would surmise Europeans are geniuses when compared to the rest of the world population. Totally ignoring the $150+ trillion of wealth stolen at gunpoint over the last 2+ centuries.

The blindspots end up being extremely problematic.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by manfredo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:45PM (#21532326)
Can you elaborate on how European imperialism is related to whether or not we should take lead exposure into account during parole hearings in the United States?