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Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by wpasc on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:03PM (#21526394)
Kind of. AI/ML systems are supposed to learn things from the data they are fed to accomplish some sort of more generalizable goal or task. Echoing the biases they're fed is probably more akin to overfitting to their training data.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by rcthompson on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:02PM (#21527255)
No, it's not the same as overfitting. It's nothing to do with the algorithm at all. The problem is with the training data, which contains patterns induced by the way the data was collected rather than the reality of what you want to classify.

For example, imagine that you wanted to train an algorithm to distinguish photos of dogs from photos humans. So you collect a bunch of photos of both dogs and humans and use them to train a classifier. You do all the proper cross-validation, bootstrapping, etc. to ensure that you are not overfitting, and you get really good results. Then, looking at the mis-classifications, you notice something: all the photos that are taken looking at an angle down toward the ground are classified as dog photos, and all the photos taken looking straight ahead are classified as human photos. It turns out that in your training set, most of the dog photos are taken at a downward angle while must of the human photos are taken facing straight ahead, because humans are taller than dogs, and your machine learning algorithm identified this feature as the most reliable way to distinguish the two groups of photos in your training set.

In this hypothetical example, no overfitting occurred. The difference in photo angles is a real difference in the training sets that you provided to the algorithm, and the algorithm did its job and correctly identified this difference between the two groups of photos as a reliable predictor. The problem is that your training set has a variable (photo angle) that is highly correlated with what you want to classify (species). This is considered an unwanted bias (and not a reliable indicator) because the correlation is caused by the means of data collection (most photos are taken from human head height) and has nothing to do with the subject of the photos.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by CardenB on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:37PM (#21531508)
I think you’re arguing semantics a bit. What you’re saying checks out, but one could say that overfitting was occurring but the test dataset distribution was not wide enough to catch it.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by etbebl on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @08:07PM (#21531729)
As I understand it, if it's overfitting, testing on a second random sample gathered in the same way as the training set should degrade performance. That's not the case here.

(Though maybe the term as used in industry is less strict.)

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by rcthompson on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:56AM (#21535348)
It's not semantics. Overfitting is a completely unrelated problem. Overfitting is an issue with the machine learning algorithm and how you're applying it and can be fixed by changing how you use the algorithm, while what we're taking about here is a problem with the training data. There is nothing that can fix a biased training data set short of getting new training data that doesn't contain that bias.

It would be like if your car was driving in circles and you called a mechanic to fix your steering, and they told you that the actual problem was that both right wheels were missing. That's not a steering problem, and no repair to the steering system will fix it. The only fix is to put new wheels on.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by Izkata on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:40AM (#21535244)
Overfitting is about being too precise because of the sample inputs, such as if "downward angle" + "brown blob" (one specific dog breed) + "leash" + "lots of green" (grass) was required to identify a dog. GP's example wasn't that, it was just identifying the wrong thing.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by XuMiao on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:52PM (#21546981)
Instead of overfitting , it's more related to exploitation vs exploration. We see more men related to programming might be just that women are not given opportunities to explore the programming as a career.

When AI makes a decision, right now, people only uses the probability output. Hiring A has .6 probability while hiring B has .4. then we will hire A instead of B. However, if we consider the confidence intervals, the decision might not be that clear. Say +/- .5 to hire A but .2 to hire B. If exploration is considered too, very likely that we will give B a chance.

AI is in the realm of probabilistic decision making, while normal people don't follow. The bias is not from the training side. It's the decision making process incorporating AI should change.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by gambler on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:53PM (#21527145)
>AI/ML systems are supposed to learn things from the data they are fed to accomplish some sort of more generalizable goal or task.

...which means that whether a model is "biased" depends on where and how it's applied. This is an important point that is missing from most discussions, articles and even research papers on the so-called "AI ethics".

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by int_19h on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @10:30PM (#21532519)
Such a model is objectively biased regardless of where and how it's applied - it prefers X over Y, and that's bias by definition. The hard question here is deciding whether any given bias is ethical or not.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by haberman on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:02PM (#21527264)
The test for overfitting is whether the model holds up for data outside the training set.

If the biases are consistent with other real-world data, then it's not overfitting.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:30PM (#21526820)
The line between fit and overfit is arbitrary, though. What is happening is that the systems are revealing unconscious biases present in the more traditional systems the AI/ML are supposed to replicate, build upon, or speed up.

If the results are odious to us, it should be impetus to critically analyze not only the AI/ML systems, but also the underlying assumptions that they're built on. Instead, developers become defensive and cage-y about their processes.

If you don't want systems to have disparate impact, you have to be adamant about it in your design. If you think society is better off with systems that reflect preexisting biases, then fine, but be ready for the backlash.

At the end of the day, it really is up to what humans want to do with themselves. It's an opportunity to be truer to our intent, not a bug to be covered up.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by im3w1l on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:44PM (#21527038)
> The line between fit and overfit is arbitrary, though. What is happening is that the systems are revealing unconscious biases present in the more traditional systems the AI/ML are supposed to replicate, build upon, or speed up.

When you say unconscious bias, you are kind of implying that the model learns something that is false. But more often it's the case that the model learns something true that we don't want it to learn. That's what makes the problem so hard, you are trying to hide the truth from a system you only half-understand processing data you only half-understand. There is a big risk the truth slips through the cracks if you aren't careful.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by wan23 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:48PM (#21528640)
> When you say unconscious bias, you are kind of implying that the model learns something that is false.

It's more that the model learns something that is undesirable. It could be the case, for example, that the true thing that the AI learns is that your resume screening process tends to exclude women. This is true, sure, but it could lead to the undesirable outcome where the presence of a female name on a resume might be weighted heavily against the candidate.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:15PM (#21528984)
Well, in many cases, they are indeed learning something false (or, to be more charitable, something that is not sufficiently true). For example, a facial recognition system that has trouble detecting dark-skinned faces. Black and brown people clearly have faces, but because the systems were not trained on their facial data, and the capability to adequately adjust exposure or other aspects of the sensor stack was not built into the system, it provides an objectively wrong solution given perfectly reasonable inputs.

I agree that this process is one of resolving blind spots, but I disagree that the blind spots are simply areas devoid of light. AI/ML systems are frequently employed to augment or stand in for human perception, which is known to be necessarily incomplete with respect to reality. In other words, they can learn things that seem true to us but that are false from another perspective, or undesirable once exposed. What's exciting about them is that they provide an opportunity to interrogate the flaws in our individual perception with a systematized observation and analysis, in a much more sophisticated manner than in the past. But fulfilling that potential requires humility.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by im3w1l on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:31PM (#21529824)
Yeah that's a good point, about having sufficient examples in the training set. I think it's not as simple as that though, several years after that made headlines people have still not been able to close the face recognition accuracy gap. Experts are debating different explanations for this.

https://www.wired.com/story/best-algorithms-struggle-recogni...

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:55PM (#21530652)
That wasn't entirely my point, however. The training set was only a part of the problem, which in its totality was that the developers failed to consider that the functioning of their system could be affected by the biases they didn't even know they had, in this case of being more likely to see light-skinned faces as belonging to a human.

Their failure was not just in lacking diverse training sets, but diverse QA, or at least QA looking for those blindspots which eventually became evident.

So, correct, it's not as simple as having "sufficient" data.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by im3w1l on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @08:20PM (#21531831)
Normally the developers wouldn't classify images themselves (their time is too valuable). In any case, I think failing to detect a face as human should be rare unless the photo has very poor lighting or the person is almost hidden.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:02AM (#21533143)
The developers, or the project managers, are the ones setting the parameters: the expected outputs and the processes necessary for that output to be generated. That they don't classify the images themselves doesn't take away from the failure of the system to work as expected being a result of their failure to fully understand the problem, which is itself reflected in their unconcious biases.

Your expectation was the same one they had, and it was wrong, which is the crux of the issue.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by repolfx on Thursday November 14, 2019 @07:33AM (#21534887)
There's only been one case of being unable to recognise black faces that I know of, and it was shown later to be due to the lighting conditions the guy was using leading to very low contrast imagery. The same problem was replicated with white faces: there was no racism anywhere as you would expect given that unconscious bias hasn't been shown to exist at all (the studies that claim to show it have all collapsed).

If you asked the developers of the facial recognition library, "does your software have problems with very low contrast conditions" they'd surely have answered yes. Fully conscious of the issue but, that's software. It's hard to get everything right 100% of the time.

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @10:25PM (#21556380)
There have actually been several cases of recognition and classification issues, and it is an ongoing problem.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by im3w1l on Thursday November 14, 2019 @04:38AM (#21534128)
> Your expectation was the same one they had, and it was wrong

Do you have a source for data set mis-labelings being a problem?

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by bsanr2 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @10:28PM (#21556389)
I didn't say they were. You're beginning to present yourself as someone speaking in bad faith.
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by loopz on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:16PM (#21529666)
You're correct. A statistical model could uncover "an inconvenient truth", and even make us question our biases and become more adamant in finding better solutions.

However, ML is often sold as a solution for generating outcomes, not for finding truths, wether they be true or false.

The distinction is huge.

No matter what humans do, they will reap what they sow. Consequences and outcome matter more than "truth" (which may be in the eye and competence of the beholder).

Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by Doingmything123 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:23PM (#21526705)
I guess the question is how well to we expect AI/ML systems to be able to generalize on a biased subset data. If you are trying to use one of these systems to make hiring decisions but you train it on data from the hires you made, should we really be surprised if biases in the original hiring(education level, gender, race, income, personality) are reflected in the AI's decisions?
Re:A.I. Systems Echo Biases They’re Fed, Putting Scientists ... by shantly on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:12PM (#21526541)
A glance over some dictionaries reveals I'm leaning on an essentially archaic and poetic sense of "bias" here to evade its meaning exclusively an unreasonable judgement, it seems.