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Re:I was an astrologer by BurningFrog on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:07AM (#21473811)
> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad.

I'd say that's absolutely the scientific, empirical approach!

Sounds like these psychics serve as a low key religion for these people. As a pretty hardline atheists, I have over the years had to admit that religion really works at giving many people hope and sanity.

We may even, as humans, be hardwired to require religion in our lives. I sometimes miss that I can't have that in my life, because I can see reality as it is...

Re:I was an astrologer by epicide on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:35AM (#21474084)
> I'd say that's absolutely the scientific, empirical approach!

Not at all.

The scientific approach would involve a sample size greater than one, double-blind studies, and at least one control group. All of which you obviously can't do for studying an individual. However, not being able to do those things does not suddenly make this approach scientific nor empirical.

More importantly, it's very difficult to tell whether it's actually helping. It may be helping her in the short-term, but could be severely hurting her in the long-term [0].

As OP stated, they are not empowering the friend with tools to fix their own problem. Instead, they are clearly trying to promote this learned helplessness and dependence [1]. Sadly enough, it sounds like external dependence is the very problem the friend is trying to solve.

Basically, they are substituting the friend's problem with a different problem in the short-term, which will likely compound with the original problem in the long-term.

Yes, religions can help, but that's not guaranteed like a lot of religions would have you believe [2]. This scenario is a perfect example.

[0]: Give a man a fish, etc. [1]: I realize psychologists are incentivized to do this as well, but a) I'm talking about in this particular case, and b) that's at least the intent behind the laws and regulations for having a medical license. [2]: Including atheism.

Re:I was an astrologer by BurningFrog on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:55AM (#21474876)
Read what you're responding to carefully:

> so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad

So it's about what you should think about this activity, IF it is actually helping.

OP thinks it should be avoided even if it's helping.

I'm arguing for the opposite.

You're arguing about something different: Does it actually work? This is an entirely separate question that I don't have much of an opinion on.

I would take issue with your (seeming) claim that you need a multi million dollar lab that does full scale double blind tests of every claim to have a scientific outlook.

That's an unfortunate "all or nothing" world view. Most of the great science in history was done without that, and a rational person can make empirical observation in everyday life without such a huge apparatus, and gain a lot from it.

Re:I was an astrologer by Consultant32452 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:06AM (#21474398)
Placebos work even if you know it's a placebo. If a person believes religion/psychics/chiropractic/homeopathy helps them in some way, it probably does. Even if they know those things are bunk.
Re:I was an astrologer by skissane on Thursday November 07, 2019 @02:06PM (#21476254)
A couple of times, when I've been too stressed out, a doctor has prescribed me diazepam.

The funny thing about it, is when I take a diazepam tablet, I instantly start to feel better, even though I realise from a pharmacological viewpoint the diazepam could not yet have been absorbed by my stomach and travelled through my blood to reach my brain yet.

Placebo effect happens even for therapies that actually really work.

Re:I was an astrologer by epicide on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:37AM (#21474717)
Absolutely. I'm not saying that it can't help or that it isn't helping in the short-term. I'm saying that the long-term net effect could still be negative even with short-term positive effects.

The original implication is that short-term positive -> long-term positive, which is simply not true.

Re:I was an astrologer by xenophonf on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:45AM (#21474786)
Placebos don't work at all. They're inert. Some people just get better on their own, which is lucky for them but not the basis of a treatment plan.
Re:I was an astrologer by Consultant32452 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @04:07PM (#21477250)
It appears you have outdated information on this topic. Here a reference:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...

Re:I was an astrologer by TheCraiggers on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:27AM (#21474006)
> We may even, as humans, be hardwired to require religion in our lives.

I don't think that's exactly it, but this isn't the first time I've heard this.

Humans' (and other animals) brains are hardwired to find patterns in things. It's a survival instinct. Alice and Bob ate that mushroom and then died. That's a pattern, and I will now avoid that mushroom.

The bad part is this is so hardwired that we can see patterns in things that do not exist (animals in clouds, jesus in toast, etc) and this can occasionally be problematic for us. A few people got murdered on a full moon, and now everybody thinks that's a pattern. I think religion stems from the same thing. People really want to attribute things to patterns to make sense of the world, or otherwise explain that which is currently impossible for them to explain in an effort to feel safe.

At some level, yeah, it won't hurt much if it helps certain people get out of bed in the morning. And many religions do play a social role (which could easily be replaced, but nevermind that). However, that path leads to stagnation. If that's what they desire, then OK, but as a member of our race, I sure am glad some people don't settle for that and instead seek to know more about themselves and reality. That's when growth, both personal and for all humankind, can happen.

Re:I was an astrologer by tstrimple on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:17AM (#21473908)
The placebo effect is amazing. It even works if you know it's a placebo! That's why I still take a ton of vitamin C when I feel a cold coming on and it seems to prevent it most of the time. While I haven't tried it, I'm sure something like prayer could have beneficial effects in Atheists as well for that reason.
Re:I was an astrologer by WA on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:33AM (#21474072)
Not sure what to make of this statement. Believe what you want (good for you if it seems to work), but it sounds a bit like you're overstating the impact of the placebo effect.

a) It works best, when doctors take their time to prescribe it, even if you know it's a placebo. There are studies about two groups where one receives a placebo and the other a placebo and a 10 minute talk. The latter had better outcomes.

b) The placebo effect works best, if used with symptoms of pain. This is the most-studied use-case for placebos. With a virus infection like a cold, not so much. See c)

c) Supplements like vitamin C generally speaking don't seem to really help when a cold is coming. As long as you have a healthy diet, supplements aren't required and don't really have a positive effect on your health. Maybe some stuff makes you feel slightly better, but it doesn't make the infection go away.

d) Not every cold breaks out. Sleeping helps a lot.

Re:I was an astrologer by xenophonf on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:49AM (#21474819)
@tstrimple, that's not what that study says at all. Vitamin C supplementation _doesn't_ help. From the "Main Results" section of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23440782:

No consistent effect of vitamin C was seen on the duration or severity of colds in the therapeutic trials.

Re:I was an astrologer by tstrimple on Thursday November 07, 2019 @12:54PM (#21475463)
Followed by: Nevertheless, given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration and severity of colds in the regular supplementation studies, and the low cost and safety, it may be worthwhile for common cold patients to test on an individual basis whether therapeutic vitamin C is beneficial for them.
Re:I was an astrologer by tstrimple on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:44AM (#21474778)
Re:I was an astrologer by wool_gather on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:33AM (#21474064)
Absolutely; witness the number of people who don't participate in organized religion but have some kind of ad-hoc personal practice. Or, better, notice how many people (I'm one) continue to entertain small superstitions or borderline-magical habits even while, if asked, they'll say they know they're ridiculous.
Re:I was an astrologer by santoriv on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:22AM (#21473948)
Sure, as long as you don't confusing praying with being proactive.
Re:I was an astrologer by Endy on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:15AM (#21474490)
Rubber-ducking can be proactive though. And does it really differ if you're talking out your program to a rubber duck or if you're talking out your other challenges to something "else"? I would say they're pretty well matched.
Re:I was an astrologer by Fellshard on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:37AM (#21474105)
That's not scientific, and especially not empirical, /by definition/ - it's pragmatism, with a very vague metric of what is 'helping'.
Re:I was an astrologer by sk5t on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:19AM (#21473923)
> because I can see reality as it is

It might be best to think long and hard before saying something like that... we humans are not great at observing or recording unfiltered reality.

Re:I was an astrologer by BurningFrog on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:33AM (#21474073)
I'm in two minds about this.

1: Yeah, and fixing that is what science is for!

2: Oh, I'm quite aware that as a human I'm a big "bias machine", and I wrote that a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Re:I was an astrologer by farazbabar on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:36AM (#21474091)
I think you are referring to our brains' inability and incapacity to perceive reality, right on. But recognizing a smaller illusion (religion) within the larger one (the reality) is still seeing part of reality as it is.
Re:I was an astrologer by hwillis on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:27AM (#21474601)
> Sounds like these psychics serve as a low key religion for these people.

I think that's a reasonable comparison, and I think both should be judged on the same basis- by the overall impact.

Psychics may be good for some people. Psychologist and social workers should also be (and are) prepared to help people without immediately forcing them to examine their traumas, but mistakes will happen and people may be pushed away by it. Even if psychics are inferior to psychologists as treatment, having a second line to catch people who got pushed away may also have value.

A lot of people, imo the large majority, of people who go to psychics are not doing something that will improve their lives. I'm 100% positive there are tons of people out there who would be helped by psychologists if they had not first been sucked into psychic woo and/or glued to that belief. If psychics are harming more people than they help, or doing larger harm than the benefit they provide, it has a negative impact on the collective public and should be pushed against.

And just so I don't sound vaguely like a moralizing authoritarian, I'm just talking in terms of like, public health projects. PSAs and outreach etc. I am of the opinion that it does get to a dangerous level (eg cults) that should be dealt with at a legal level, but some level of deception and grift must (unfortunately) be protected as natural freedoms.

Re:I was an astrologer by jermaustin1 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:20AM (#21473935)
I think we are less hardwired for religion than we are for the community of like-mindedness that inherently comes along with the religion.

I also miss that community I used to have at my subtly racist, across the street from the Grand Master of the KKK Baptist church. Hated the hate, loved the love.

Re:I was an astrologer by lonelappde on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:30AM (#21474035)
I think you are splitting hairs a bit, but even so, religions keep getting reinvented all over the planet for millennia so far, which suggests it's an inbuilt tendency.
Re:I was an astrologer by fortran77 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:09AM (#21474443)
It's more like therapy. And if it's an "honest" astrologer, who simply charges an clearly-posted hourly rate, and doesn't keep asking for more and more money to remove curses, is there really any harm?
Re:I was an astrologer by xenophonf on Thursday November 07, 2019 @11:52AM (#21474856)
Yes, there's harm. The astrologer is defrauding the client who thinks they're getting something other than entertainment.
Re:I was an astrologer by lonelappde on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:28AM (#21474020)
It's like those people selling Firefox on Amazon for $50.

Yeah Firefox is worth $50 if you have to pay for it, but it's still scummy for a third party to sell it like that.