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Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by nickik on Monday November 04, 2019 @10:32AM (#21442538)
My solution would simply be to massively focus on nuclear. Replace all existing coal plants with nuclear plants and plug them into the network.

Once you have mass production of nuclear power plants, you can start using nuclear power to create liquid alcohol fuels. Start a process of changing cars to electric or alcohol based fuels, the same goes for ships and eventually planes.

The process of switching to alcohol based fuels can be started in parallel, with early on using fossil fuels.

Start taxing fossil fuel usage to make people move over to liquid fuels.

This vision was created out by one of the nuclear innovates. He invented the PWR (currently used nuclear) but rejected it as a terrible design for human energy production. His insistence that PWR were not 'perfectly save' got him essentially fired. He had come up with Molten Salt reactors to fix all the issues of PWRs.

His vision was more to use nuclear heat to turn salt water into water you can use for irrigation. Not really produce Liquid fuels in a carbon neutral way but the vision makes sense.

Now, unfortunately this should really have started in the 70s, but it would have been the most systematic approach to actually solving the problem. But of course that requires the population not to freak out about nuclear and to accept potentially higher oil prices.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by greglindahl on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#21445578)
> Now, unfortunately this should really have started in the 70s,

Today's solar and wind boom was started in the 70s. It's kind of amazing how many people prefer the "bird in the bush" over the "bird in the hand".

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by nickik on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:06PM (#21445876)
That depends on definition. Yes, people were playing around with those things. But the idea that from the 70s to 2000s you could have systematically used wind and solar to replace fossil fuels is nonsense.

Even today no industrial country is even close to having even all its energy from solar and wind. And were not even talking about transportation.

For an alternative level you can look at France. France basically removed fossil fuels from its electricity production in less then 20 years of producing nuclear. And we know that CO2 saved earlier is more valuable.

Now they never went to the step of trying to introduce alcohol fuels, as of course their goal was to limit import of oil to make the French economy resilient and not to save CO2.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by greglindahl on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:47PM (#21446328)
> But the idea that from the 70s to 2000s you could have systematically used wind and solar to replace fossil fuels is nonsense.

I didn't say anything like that! What I meant is that the sustained technology development effort you called for actually happened for other energy-generating technologies, starting on the date you suggested. The result is that costs fell by several orders of magnitude, and also that it makes sense to widely deploy them now.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by scaphandre on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:19PM (#21457387)
> Even today no industrial country is even close to having even all its energy from solar and wind

There are reports that Scotland has been generating 200% of household energy needs from wind alone in 2019. That sounds close to me. Here is a news report, and wiki: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/15/scotland-has-produced-enough...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Scotland

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by jeffreyrogers on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:02AM (#21442836)
Doesn't burning ethanol still create CO2? I don't think we can maintain our current level of energy use from hydrocarbon based fuels (ethanol or otherwise) while still keeping CO2 emissions low.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by nickik on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:36PM (#21445511)
Yes but if you get that CO2 from the air in production its carbon neutral.

But of course during the transition you would not really save on CO2. As methanol would still be produced by natural gas. But once you have it carbon neutral you can at least still use liquid fuel, and that's something the world will continue to use.

But alcohol fuels also burn much cleaner and release less actual harmful stuff and would make cities much healthier. So there are other things to consider outside of CO2.

But in general, for personal cars and stuff like that batteries are a better solution. The thing is, we could have done more alcohol fuels much earlier.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by cesarb on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:22AM (#21443047)
With ethanol, the carbon which burns to create the CO2 came from atmospheric CO2 in the first place, during the growth of the sugar cane which was used to produce that ethanol. That is, the CO2 emissions from ethanol are not a problem because they are matched by an identical amount of CO2 capture.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by lightedman on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:32AM (#21443217)
"That is, the CO2 emissions from ethanol are not a problem because they are matched by an identical amount of CO2 capture."

You're missing every other machine using non-ethanol fuel to operate which is required for harvesting/producing ethanol biofuel.

Ethanol's net CO2 output is positive, not negative. That is not good.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by PeterisP on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:25PM (#21446667)
That would imply that producing ethanol requires more fuel than it produces, so producing ethanol costs more money (for fuel) than the resulting fuel can be sold for - which is simply not true.

While you might argue that some cases of bioethanol in the first world are essentially just farm subsidies, producing sugarcane ethanol in favorable conditions (e.g. Brazil) definitely is profitable in the financial sense and also in the CO2 sense because it saves most of CO2 emissions compared to the fossil fuels they replace.

Of course, even in ideal conditions any fuel has zero net emissions and can't possibly have a net negative CO2 contribution by itself (that would require carbon sequestration) but every liter of gasoline/diesel that gets replaced by a low-CO2 fuel means a reduction of CO2 emissions.

You shouldn't compare something against a fictional zero, you compare it against realistic alternatives, so CO2 emissions are not only acceptable but actually desirable if they replace much larger CO2 emissions.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by cesarb on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:51AM (#21443492)
Setting aside that these are not the CO2 emissions from "burning ethanol", do any of these "machines required for harvesting/producing ethanol" require a "non-ethanol fuel", or do they use that fuel for now just because it's convenient, and could be easily replaced by other sources? I know that the power for the refining plants is produced by burning the remainder of the sugar cane plant (which produces so much power that the refining plants sell the remainder electricity), but I don't know which fuel the trucks and tractors currently use.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by xyzzyz on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:09PM (#21445915)
Tractors and trucks currently use diesel, but you could convert them to ethanol if required. Most likely existing ones would just be gradually phased out, and new machines would just run on ethanol.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by lightedman on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:04PM (#21445146)
"Setting aside that these are not the CO2 emissions from "burning ethanol", do any of these "machines required for harvesting/producing ethanol" require a "non-ethanol fuel", or do they use that fuel for now just because it's convenient."

You can't set that aside. Consider the whole chain of production and usage or be consigned to a disingenuous selective argument upon the level of quack doctors. Plain and simple.

Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by nickik on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:42PM (#21445588)
I'm primary talking about methanol, ethanol is not really as good a fuel and producing it by using biomass is not very efficient. So generally I would be against it but cars should still be able to use it.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by perfunctory on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:08AM (#21442895)
Let's suppose this is a good plan. But it's still just a plan. How do we actually realize it? We both know voting alone won't cut it.
Re:Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Glo... by nickik on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:13PM (#21445957)
No clue. Some leader or party making it their program. Very trick in democracies specially today with people having been so indoctrinated into so many of the old environmentalist ideas that are counter-productive. Meaning things like Anti-Nuclear, Anti-GMO and so on.

Usually this wouldn't happen because of climate change. France pushed nuclear because they wanted to be independent of Saudi princes.

But the French example clearly shows that a industrial country can go away from fossil fuel electricity in 15 years if its actually determined to do so and using nuclear energy. And they did it with 1960s technology, the same kind of effort with modern types of nuclear plants, could potentially be even faster.

There is no question in my mind if there was political consensuses on a plan, any industrial nation could move away from 90% of fossil fuels usage within 20 years and it wouldn't actually cost as much as people tend to think.