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Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by graeme on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:42AM (#21376879)
World savings is a misnomer. You redeem savings by drawing on the resources of the rest of society. The world can't be a net saver.

Imagine a desert island of two people. They have a system of savings. You can bank away a voucher that makes the other person gather coconuts for you, and do other necessary work.

One of the two people could conceivably work harder in their youth and then work less later using the vouchers. But:

1. They can't both do it 2. If the other person loses capacity to work hard in their later years, your savings voucher loses value.

How can they both save? To a limited extent, they can store resources like extra coconuts, build infrastructure and tools while young, etc. But this only goes so far: food rots, infrastructure depreciates.

On a global scale the world is no different. A savings shortfall means that global youth productivity won't be high enough to support global elderly retirement. We will need to either:

1. Get youth more productive 2. Make more youth 3. Take a greater percent of youth's income 4. Have old people live on less or not retire so early

Notice that none of these are about saving now? That's because moving 1's and 0's in a ledger isn't a provisioning of future goods. You need actual future goods production.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by SuoDuanDao on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:49AM (#21376937)
Your logic seems to require labour to be the primary creator of value. Returning to your desert island analogy, both castaways could spend their youth planting coconut trees close to their shelter, thereby reducing the amount of work needed to gather coconuts as their mobility decreases. It seems to me that any economic system which invests in productivity and automation could similarly replace the labour required to subsidize the 'retired' population by investing in labour replacement technologies.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by nicoburns on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:51AM (#21376953)
Right, but money sitting in a bank account isn't necessarily being invested in a meaningful way. A lot of "investment" these days is in financial instruments, which don't generate value in the way that would be realise these benefits.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by SuoDuanDao on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:53AM (#21376979)
Ah, I understand the criticism now. I was thinking of these investments as buying shares in companies that make automated nurses etc.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by Fjolsvith on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:33PM (#21380668)
Wrong. Money sitting in a bank account is loaned out by the bank to people who will use that money profitably. The only place that money can sit without contributing to the economy is in a piggy bank or under a mattress.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by candybar on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:59PM (#21383660)
Whether you put your money in a piggy bank or a bank account doesn't impact the productive capacity of an economy. Keep in mind that money can be created out of thin air and that's effectively what would happen if enough people cashed out - it would reduce the supply of money and the central bank would make up for it until the desired level as measured by inflation would be reached. Other than some volatility this would create if it was coordinated, it would have little impact on the real economy.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by gnosis89 on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:38PM (#21381385)
False. Trillions of dollars are simply re-invested in financial activities (many of which are risky and borderline illegal as well as insured by your taxes) that serve only to generate more numbers with 0 physical contribution to the world. At least you can lift your mattress up with money underneath it or use your piggy bank as a paper weight.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by Fjolsvith on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:23PM (#21382392)
Do explain where they get the interest they pay the depositor of the cash.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by candybar on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:02PM (#21383668)
Interest rate has nothing to do with profitability - it's just a price that balances the supply and demand of funds and on the short end, it's heavily influenced by monetary policy and on the long end, it's heavily influenced by the inflation and growth expectations. Lots of consumers borrow at very high rates and it's not because they expect to be profitable with the money they borrow.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by tlholaday on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:59AM (#21377027)
> both castaways could spend their youth planting coconut trees close to their shelter,

Addressed by graeme as "build infrastructure and tools while young."

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by bryanlarsen on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:54AM (#21376984)
The services that elderly need are labour dominated. Japan is working hard on eldercare robots, but I'm skeptical.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by cryptica on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:36AM (#21377363)
This is true. That's why it's alarming that most people's energy today is wasted on useless zero-sum activities like social media, finance, marketing, bureaucracy... The problem is actually quite simple, the people who control capital today are not intelligent enough and so they don't have the confidence to take the measured risks that are necessary to really innovate.

If you look at the generations who were working between 1980 and 2000 (spanning 20 years), they delivered mind-blowing innovations: personal computers, graphics cards, databases, the internet, countless vaccines... It's impossible to list everything. What did the newer generations do in the last 20 years? Facebook, Twitter, Snap, Youtube, Netflix, Uber, Bitcoin... The only genuinely impressive thing that we achieved was the successful commercialization of the electric car. Our generation sucks. We are stupid and unwise. We can't allocate capital.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by folbec on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:52AM (#21377503)
not sure that we cannot allocate capital, the previous generation harvested most of the low hanging fruits, it can be argued that most modern progress needs more and more energy, and we are on a path of diminishing returns.

See the various options under :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_stagnation

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_inve...

the world is not infinite, and economic growth can not be infinite.

I have no proof if we are effectivelly at "the limits to growth" or not. It sure starts to feel like it.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by perlgeek on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:13AM (#21377168)
> 1. Get youth more productive 2. Make more youth 3. Take a greater percent of youth's income 4. Have old people live on less or not retire so early

5. Automate more, and make sure the production value from the automation benefits those that need it.

This is the basic idea behind Universal Basic Income.

If you have a coconut harvesting robot, none of the two islanders need to work -- assuming there isn't a third person charging them for the coconuts.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by basch on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:19AM (#21377731)
What are they going to do with the coconuts, are they free, whats the point of cash then if they both have cash? Why would either accept cash from the other?
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by dtech on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:49AM (#21376942)
1 seems achievable by automation. We already see that farming is done by a tiny fraction of the people that were necessary 100 years ago, and it seems feasible that most manufacturing is automated in another 50 years or so.

In your analogy, both people can redeem their coconut voucher if they've built a robot that gathers the cononuts.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by blaser-waffle on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:39PM (#21381394)
So we've got the labor / actual-physical-production thing squared away... but then who is going to fund this?
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by belltaco on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:37PM (#21381992)
Who funded the worldwide automation and improving yields of agriculture?
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by wait-a-minute on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:34AM (#21377856)
Note that as savings pile up in banks and brokerages, they supply the world with more loans for starting new businesses or new ventures. The money in a bank doesn't just sit there. It is a basis for economic activity throughout the country and even the rest of the world.

A more appropriate example is not an island that constrains population, but a population where new people are born and make investments into new businesses and new ideas. You can certainly have people transition more towards savings over time as they enter their prime career earning potential, without it impacting the rest. This is because there will always be other people who are willing to start businesses.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by graeme on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:06PM (#21378184)
I addressed that by saying the islanders could work on infrastructure and labour saving tools while young. That's investment, deferred consumption.

However, this has limits. A country with a 8:1 worker:retiree ratio is currently much more productive than a country with a 2:1 or a 1:2 ratio.

Maybe savings could change this for the future, by really making something that hardly needs labour. But presently we have a real labour barrier to this kind of saving.

I agree it would be better if we saved more though, as this does indeed translate to invest. I hadn't explicitly spelled this out, so thanks.

The islanders are indeed better off if they defer. But, they cannot make themselves so well off as when their society was young, and they still need some labour.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by akerro on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:57AM (#21377007)
>1. Get youth more productive

Youth is always more productive because they use tools and strategies worked out by the older.

>2. Make more youth

In some wealthier, western countries many people in their 20s and 30s can't afford to have a dog.

>3. Take a greater percent of youth's income

That's how you divide a nation, young will hate the old, riots will start. Check out "2030: The Real Story of What Happens to America"

>4. Have old people live on less or not retire so early

That's how politicians lose support, Brexit happened because more old people voted than young people, now opinions of old people are being listened to, young are ignored, because they have less voting power.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by foogazi on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:36AM (#21377882)
> In some wealthier, western countries many people in their 20s and 30s can't afford to have a dog.

How can anyone not afford a dog? They are free and don’t eat that much

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by EForEndeavour on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:03PM (#21378889)
Food is not the only cost of owning a dog. Vet bills alone can bankrupt an owner. Besides, you'll have a hard time giving a good life to a dog if you're working long hours or more than one job.
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by rinze on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:32PM (#21378468)
> They are free and don’t eat that much

"Free" after veterinary costs and a bit of equipment. Plus the food. Let's say that's N dollars per month.

That's the N dollars some people don't have.

Or, if they have them, it can be seen as a failure of the current embodiment of capitalism: obviously someone is not extracting enough rents.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by kbutler on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:33AM (#21377342)
You could just stockpile long shelf-life foods and literally save today's production for future consumption https://www.offthegridnews.com/off-grid-foods/stockpiling-10...

> You need actual future goods production.

That's the real key to "world savings", and in your terms you can think of it as "making youth more productive" (or making the elderly productive enough).

In the desert island, You seem to imagine that labor is a zero-sum game (the desert island is the same tomorrow as today) rather than a positive-sum, where I improve the world by my labor, in addition to providing for today's consumption.

Imagine an isolated homesteading family with no community. How would this person/family save for old age? By building up the farm, building tools, planting orchards, building irrigation systems, managing forests, so that today's labor can reduce the amount of labor required for the future.

Agafia Lykova is such a person - https://www.businessinsider.com/72-year-old-hermit-lives-in-... - she lives alone, using tools saved from an earlier time, in a home her family built in previous decades. Life with this infrastructure, including maintenance, requires less effort than initial construction, which was done when there was surplus labor available.

Similarly for a country or a world - the net savings exists in acquired infrastructure (capital) that enables future production (& consumption).

Trees are a good example - by planting fruit trees (capital investment), I enable future fruit harvests. Managed timber forests provide future lumber (or fuel) production decades later.

Similar investments in infrastructure (water systems, equipment, buildings, etc.) all represent net saved value today that enhances future production in subsequent years.

Yes, labor is required in future years, both for production and maintenance (unless/until we can fully automate), but the ratio of consumption today to future consumption is not constant, even in global sum (e.g., the years 1940-1945 may have been a world-wide net loss of acquired capital, certainly for Europe). That net improvement in infrastructure is global savings (or loss).

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by 0x445442 on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:52AM (#21376963)
>> 1. They can't both do it

Yes they can. Assuming there are enough resources to sustain both their entire lives (let's say 75 years); each can work enough to accumulate those resources in 50 years so they don't have to work the final 25 years.

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by tlholaday on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:00AM (#21377042)
> so they don't have to work the final 25 years.

Do you believe you can store coconuts for twenty-five years?

Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by fooker on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:04AM (#21416751)
Dried meat has a shelf life of 25 years. What's your point?
Re:The world is sitting on a $400T financial time bomb (2017) by fooker on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:03AM (#21416748)
>They have a system of savings.

Or they could have a system where they store food for the winter...