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Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by djsumdog on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:36PM (#21336902)
It's relevant, and pretty critical to the entire story. He wasn't traveling. He was picking up a package. The purpose of the 4th amendment to applying at border crossings is to secure the border. Everything customs did in this case should be totally and completely illegal.
Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by Scoundreller on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:46PM (#21337004)
Not even picking it up: just paying the duties that it appears an international airport isn’t equipped to collect?

That part doesn’t make sense.

I’m thinking he wanted to avoid brokerage charges by brokering himself, and needed paperwork from DHL to be signed by customs.

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by djsumdog on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:54PM (#21337084)
Yea I was wondering that too. I've never paid duties on shipping persona hard drive backups internationally (LUKS encrypted of course), but the shipping chargers were really high, so I assumed duties/taxes were rolled into the shipping/deceleration .. I really should have looked carefully at those recipes.
Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by rayiner on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:41PM (#21336963)
The issue isn’t the relevance, but the way the fact is interjected within the otherwise chronological narrative. Imagine if the fact of his US citizenship had come at the end, when CBP was able to learn about it. The story would read very differently.

How would borders work if CBP was simply required to accept people’s unsubstantiated assertion that they were citizens who just forgot their ID?

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by pcwalton on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @04:53PM (#21338884)
> How would borders work if CBP was simply required to accept people’s unsubstantiated assertion that they were citizens who just forgot their ID?

Hold on. Nobody objects to citizens having to show identification or risk detention when crossing the border. The issue is that the man wasn't crossing the border.

Borders would work just fine if CBP could only require identification at the border. In fact, I suspect if you were to poll Americans, most probably think that this is already the case. That's why this was an issue to begin with: presumably if the man had known he was going to be detained if he didn't bring his ID, he would have done that.

It's like if you went to the DMV to take a driving test, having forgotten your ID at home, and instead of telling you to come back with your ID the DMV staff took you into custody. You'd be pretty outraged, citizen or not.

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by rayiner on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:02PM (#21339985)
> Borders would work just fine if CBP could only require identification at the border.

No they wouldn't. In many cases it's impossible to put a border checkpoint at the literal border. That's why they're often at choke points in the transportation system near borders.

I think there's a reasonable debate to be had about whether those choke points should be on highways dozens of miles from the literal border. That's not the situation here.

> In fact, I suspect if you were to poll Americans, most probably think that this is already the case. That's why this was an issue to begin with: presumably if the man had known he was going to be detained if he didn't bring his ID, he would have done that.

How people expect border crossings to work has no relevance. The question is what is an "unreasonable" search and seizure under the fourth amendment. The Constitution uses the fuzzy term "unreasonable" precisely because it acknowledges the legitimate need of the government to search and detain people without a warrant. Effectuating the nation's sovereign right to control its borders is one of those reasons. A rigid mechanical rule that only permits searches of people as they cross the literal border cannot be reconciled with the much more--well, reasonable--language the fourth amendment uses.

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by pcwalton on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:31PM (#21340152)
This misses the point. The issue isn't whether the border crossing checkpoint is at the literal line separating the countries. I didn't mean "at the border" in the sense of "one foot in Canada and one in the US"; I meant "intending to enter the United States from Canada". (That's what the lawyer quoted in the article says: "It is incumbent on CBP to determine when someone is actually trying to enter or leave the country.") Nobody cares that the Canada border crossing is a few hundred yards away from the actual 49th parallel. People do care that someone who obviously didn't mean to cross the border at all was detained for interacting with customs and forgetting ID, when they were making a good-faith effort to obey the customs laws.

The fact that nobody expects to be detained for the equivalent of a DMV trip is a good indication that this was "unreasonable" per the plain meaning of the word. Maybe case law says otherwise. But ask a "reasonable" person on the street what the appropriate response of a customs agent to someone (citizen or not) who forgot their ID to take care of some bureaucratic hurdle on a package is, especially when the agency was supposed to be aware of the person's arrival (note the mention of the email in the article). That's what I care about.

I should mention, by the way, that the pedestrian lane at a US-Canada border crossing typically has a queue on the Canada side, and the border agent calls groups in one-by-one, just as at an airport. I have no idea how someone just trying to interact with customs, who drove up and parked their car on the US side, could be confused with someone trying to enter the US. It's worth looking at a map of the Peace Bridge [1]. This isn't a checkpoint some ways away from the border; it's a road with one way into the US, through the checkpoint (and the Niagara River in between the two countries!) Unless you have a flying car, there is no way you could end up with a car on the US side without having already gone through border security. The incompetence itself is ridiculous.

[1]: https://goo.gl/maps/PTm1xCv6aEEaGpWY9

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by mindslight on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:47PM (#21337016)
Presumably the guy was a US citizen at the time the story began, so stating it in the title and when it's relevant is the chronological narrative.

The perspective of when CBP could prove this to themselves is irrelevant if they didn't have a cause to detain in the first place.

Re:A U.S. Citizen Was Detained While Trying to Pay for a Gif... by rayiner on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:03PM (#21339993)
CBP doesn't need "cause" to detain someone at the border. That's the whole point of the border search exception. One of the very first things the framers did in 1789 was to set up a system of searches and seizures at the border that, unlike searches and seizures elsewhere, required no "probable cause."