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Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by dragontamer on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:12PM (#21273497)
Not BTC being anonymous, but that BTC "mixer" services would anonymize the data in an untrackable way.

I never trusted the mixers personally. But it was a hot debate item a few years back whether or not law enforcement could track transactions through a mixer.

Its always been my firm belief that a mixer was just automated money laundering and probably puts you up for legal scrutiny as well. But we'll see how the FBI decides to handle those...

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by tempsy on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:21PM (#21273609)
It's relatively easy to identify mixers, so by sending money to a mixer you immediately flag your sending account as high risk...
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by jandrese on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:30PM (#21273741)
More importantly receiving money from a mixer could taint your wallet for converting the bitcoins into real money. KYC laws kick in. It's easy to check if you've ever had coins from a mixer enter your wallet.

The idea that your transactions are mixed up and impossible to track doesn't matter so much if they just assume everybody who uses a mixer is a criminal.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by __s on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:45PM (#21273916)
You can't reject someone depositing to your address. So a tumbler can taint whichever addresses it pleases

You aren't tracking coins with the ledger, only totals. So address A can have 10 btc, tumbler adds 5 to A, then A transfers 5 to B, 5 to C. If C is an exchange, does it consider that A is still holding 5 tumbled coins? Or does it say B has the tumbled coins? Or does it reject A's offer of 5? Feel free to shift values such as A having 100 BTC, receiving 0.01 tumbled BTC, & wanting to send 1 BTC to exchange

Also hard to track something like A sending tumbled coins to B, which triggers the owner of B to have C send non tumbled coins to D. You can even have this service offered at an exchange rate, so D receives less than B did

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by jandrese on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:24PM (#21275115)
Easiest solution is to just taint any wallet that has ever had a coin from a known tumbler added to it. It's harsh and a malicious tumbler could mess up famous wallets, but easy to implement and "safe" to a point.

A harder solution only allows them to withdraw up to the number of coins you can verify were not tumbled. So if some malicious tumbler deposits 0.000001 coin in your wallet you can convert all but 0.000001 of your wallet's value at an exchange.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:53PM (#21274009)
You get around that by converting from btc to monero and then back again. Either through bisq or through xmr.to. "mixers" are obsolete now because it's a central point of failure.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by RandomBacon on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:49PM (#21274687)
At that point, might as well just stay in Monero to avoid Bitcoin's fees.

Also, there are other ways of coorelating transactions such as tracking BTC -> XMR amounts and soon-thereafter XMR -> BTC amounts (minus fees)

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by dragontamer on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:57PM (#21274056)
Will monero just be consider a money laundering scheme by the FBI in the future?

Why use monero unless you wanted to hide your transactions? Hiding your transactions is literally illegal in the USA (its called money laundering).

Presumably, the FBI will be able to automatically determine if your BTC came from a Monero exchange.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:10PM (#21274197)
Hackers use "bisq" which is a decentralized exchange to get around this problem. I am baffled as to how "kingpin money launders" don't do this. I'm not a money launderer and I know this.

As for the fbi consdering monero a "money laundering scheme" in the future. They can outlaw it, I guess, but it's like trying to outlaw video and music piracy, it's hard to do in practice.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by dragontamer on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:22PM (#21274359)
> Hackers use "bisq" which is a decentralized exchange to get around this problem.

How does "bisq" provide anonymity to its users? If you're trading BTC, your wallets are still being connected to each other and provably written into the blockchain for all of eternity. Same with Ethereum and other "mainstream" cryptocoins.

If the FBI only cares about "anonymous" coins, like Monero, and ONLY targets those, then all payment processors would "taint" Monero wallets (or any BTC coins which ever touched a Monero-related wallet), and refuse to process them.

Its really not that hard for Monero (or any other minority-coin) to be shut out of the payment processor market and relegated to black-market goods.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:37PM (#21274560)
Because there are legimitate uses for monero and if you use a service like xmr.to to convert to bitcoin (which mixes the bitcoin on top of that), you are "far enough removed" from the tainted transaction to establish "plausible deniability".
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by dragontamer on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:29PM (#21275179)
Under the legal theory that mixers are illegal, that sounds very illegal to me.

What is the purpose of mixing the coins? You only help criminals. Gray-market goods (ex: legal pornography) are already solved by the traditional BTC network without anonymity.

Between KYC (Know your Customer) and other such laws in the USA, it is clear to me that anonymizing your transactions is very much frowned upon by the powers that be. If anything, fully transparent and trackable BTC "in the open" has numerous advantages with regards to being a "good citizen".

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:59PM (#21275598)
xmr.to is illegal in the united states so hackers use vpn to get around it.

And there are legitimate reasons to use monero and bitcoin. Sending money to family in countries such as china, iran, and venezuela is one. Another use is legitimiate "adult entertainment" sites where people don't want their sexual fetishes appearing on a credit card or ending up on a blockchain somewhere where the public can see.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by dragontamer on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:34PM (#21276047)
> Another use is legitimiate "adult entertainment" sites where people don't want their sexual fetishes appearing on a credit card or ending up on a blockchain somewhere where the public can see.

Have you ever actually purchased adult entertainment on a credit card? They are inconspicuous companies that don't exactly flag what fetish you're into. At worst, you get a cover-company that doesn't actually match up to the website name. I dare say that this is a solved problem in the credit-card world.

Worst case scenario: buy Visa / AmEX gift-cards with cash and use that to fund your porn-stash. If you really have someone watching over your credit-card statements that you're worried about. There are very simple means of avoiding the problem in the traditional credit-card world. If credit-cards are available, then no form of cryptocoin is necessary for any kind of anonymity or protection.

> And there are legitimate reasons to use monero and bitcoin. Sending money to family in countries such as china, iran, and venezuela is one.

No, at best, that's a reason to use BTC. No reason to use Monero yet. And furthermore, using BTC to avoid local currency laws is going to probably put you up to scrutiny by the local authorities.

I don't think the US cares about sending money abroad... but China probably cares if you're avoiding their Yuan -> USD restrictions or creating a secondary market to trade Yuan / USD.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by vkou on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:57PM (#21274058)
Very soon, converting your BTC to monero will flag your account as high risk.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:07PM (#21274164)
Then use Bisq. it's a decentralized exchange.

When I read stories about "people getting caught using bitcoin", I am baffled as to why they don't do this.

Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by fooker on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:28PM (#21274446)
Maybe, just maybe, the people doing the catching know what they are doing?
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:42PM (#21274622)
Or maybe they don't. Usually, governemnt agencies outsource to private companies to do the tracking. And big companies like chainalysis admit they can't do much about monero or wasabi. Usually, when people get caught it's because the criminal was being stupid rather than the government being smart.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:23PM (#21273632)
Are any of the mixers still up? I remember about a year ago when one of the most popular ones abruptly shut down when it became clear the government would go after him for abetting money laundering if he continued.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by lacker on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:34PM (#21273801)
Yeah. There was a leak recently from a Chainalysis employee who claimed that they were unable to trace transactions through the Wasabi wallet, which is a wallet that integrates a coinjoin mixer. I think there are other coinjoin-based mixer services operating.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by RandomBacon on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:45PM (#21274653)
A supposed employee in an unverified AMA.
Re:US Law Enforcement Traces Bitcoin Transfers to Nab ‘Large... by steveeq1 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:07PM (#21277041)
yeah, but he knew his stuff so it at least sounds plausible