Holocaust level events have already happened in China. For instance, Hitler was responsible for ~11million deaths, Stalin ~6-9million and Mao was estimated at over 40million.[1] Currently China has an entire ethnic group under full lock down where millions of “terrorists” and their families are already interned in large camps where there are reports of forced sterilization.[2] Due to the pervasiveness of technology things will likely get much worse. However I disagree with the assertion that we are not doing anything because we are distracted by civil liberty issues such as trans rights I think there are far more economic factors involved. Furthermore, using the unrelated tragedies of other countries to accentuate polarizing partisan topics diminishes both the severity and legitimacy of an argument.

[1] https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hit... [2] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7546833/amp/Chinese...

For your information, Mr Hitler killed over 5 million people.

Mao killed way over 30 million. Absolutely incompetent, he manage to remain in power just using terror.

The other day there was an 70th anniversary of the founding of PRC and this criminal's gigantic picture was at the hotspot.

Oh, I know. I'm a Polish-Jew. The actions of the communists is not shrouded to me. It's just a shame that the western world is so apologetic to them, I'm forced to use nazi references. Communists make fascists look like little-league amateurs playing with crayons when it comes to genocide. That's played out multiple times in multiple places in the 20th century. The real power of the communists though, they do a far better job at having a smile on their face and making everyone else think "Genocide is good for the party". Kind of like how everyone still this Che is some hero and wear shirts with his face on it. Oh, and that 30 million is just your average, run of the mill murder. The numbers of starvation due to piss poor policy, greed and power hunger are estimated to be even higher than that. Like that good ol' four pest plan. That worked out so amazingly well.... idiots. You reap what you sow... oh wait, they couldn't.

Technically speaking it's not really apples to apples. One is due to malice (hitler was actively trying to exterminate a race). The other is due to incompetence (mao would've preferred if those people didn't die but was too stupid to predict the result of his actions).

Not trying to defend either of them of course. But just for the record books we would should have a saner way of counting.

If you're going to attribute deaths due to lack of foresight then the inventor of cars probably have one of the highest kill counts. Or Genghis Khan for fathering such a large population of mortals who eventually needs to die.

> When there is not enough to eat, people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.

I think you are overattributing his stupidity here. Engineered famine is a fantastic way to make sure populations that don't like you are less of a problem in the future. The Holdomor and Irish Potato Famine are two other obvious examples.

You're not aware of how communist regimes form. They're actually really smart in this regard.

You kill everyone that doesn't agree with you, along with their family. That's anyone who didn't fight with you either. Let along just against. The 20-45 million that died from famine is in addition to a rough estimate of 30 million killed during and shortly after the revolution. You see the same in Russia too. Oh and in Cambodia. They all actually focused on the "intelligentsia" community first. Cambodia just decided to wipe them all out. Russia and China were big on making double sure they were with the party (not just neutral), before they passed up on killing them. The book 1984 really wasn't accidental in that regard. The more you could think for yourself, the more dangerous you were to the party.

It's not an accident that people are scared to criticize these governments. That's where John Steinbeck really fucked up in his book the Russian Journal. Saying "Oh, do you know anyone that's disappeared because of the soviet regime". If you don't know any Russians (at the time)... I mean, duh, you're probably not going to. But talk to even one dissident against the soviet regime in any of the eastern bloc, they'll give you a list of names of who they personally know.

Lack of foresight and intentional starvation of an entire generation of people are two VERY different things.

Putting ethnic minorities in concentration camps is an early-Holocaust atrocity today.

> Putting ethnic minorities in concentration camps is an early-Holocaust atrocity today.

Yep. But maybe we should fix Guantanamo first

Or maybe it's just a Japanese-internment level atrocity.

This is utterly unhelpful whataboutism. The japanese internment is not ongoing, is broadly recognized as an atrocity, and has been formally apologized for by the governments involved.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

- https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1988-government-apologizes...

It’s never a good sign to need to split hairs over which caliber atrocity is being committed. That being said, separating children from families is genocide according to the Rome statute, so this pretty high up on the list.

I don't mean to minimize any atrocity. But it is interesting to note that some of the strongest opponents of Chinese behavior have done similar things in the past, and perhaps even through the current day.

My speculation, the problem is the huge dependency the USA has on Chinese manufacturing and now on investments (Hollywood, Silicon Valley, etc). Like, as much as these tariffs are going to hurt us in the short term, I'm not fully against them. It's just like an business, you cannot have a large portion of your income come from one client or rely on just one supplier. You become far too dependent on them and are not willing to cross them, even if their demands don't align with you or really isn't advantageous for you in the long term. But you'll always move that goal post a little for short term happiness until you did it so much, you realize your goal post is in a whole different country.

I'd personally like to see far more diversification in USA imports and exports. A 21.5% dependency on Chinese imports... when I did freelance years ago I panicked over the fact I had a customer that made up 12% of my yearly income. I quickly did a reach out to obtain new customers so I could drop that to roughly 6%. While I understand geopolitics is a different ball game... it's really, really dangerous to have a 20%+ reliance on a supplier. Being shut off that easy on that much of goods and materials, that easily, is pretty scary.

Brainwashing millions of people is a terrible thing to do, but I don't believe it is on the same level of atrocity than genocide and mass murdering.

Nazis did not try to "assimilate" Jews by forcing them to reject their religion and traditions, and by forcing weddings between aryan and jews (could you imagine that ?).

There have been reports of Mengele-tier experimenting on Uyghur prisoners such as unsedated organ transplants. If these are true I'd say it's already on the same level vertically and only has horizontal scale left to exceed.

It's still genocide under the definition in the genocide convention.

I was referring to "Chinese government's mass incarceration of ethnic minorities". The purpose of these camps is to brainwash these people so they lose their ethnic (muslim) identity and do not even think about rebellion.

This is terrible and horrible, especially children separated from their parents, most probably for ever. But once again it is a totally different "evil" than what Nazis did. It would be closer to what North Korea did to their entire population.

Organ harvesting is a different issue, it certainly happens in Xinjiang but also in any other place in China where there is prisoners. I mean, China government did not put in place all these camps just for taking organs or for forced labor, from an economic perspective it would be a nonsense.

I'll say, I was a bit of a dick to you in my response. So sorry. You clarified your stance a bit.

But, you're falling into the trap. Every time "re-education" camps have popped up in history, bad things happened. Very bad things. You don't give the benefit of the doubt to this. The organization in question always claimed the whole "we're just helping" and other bullshit.

Ever meet a habitual liar? Someone that just lies and twists facts constantly. Even when they don't have to. Gives you an aneurysm from having to deal with their constant bullshit? It's more for their own sociopathic dominance ego rather than just the situation's consequences. But they just twist and manipulate every fact or try to skirt around issues with rhetoric. A reason why lots of folks hate lawyers, because that's literally their job to re-interpret facts and laws to suite an outcome (yes, not all lawyers are like that, a bit of a generalization, but it's to communicate a point). That is what is happening here.

They're not detainment camps, we are re-educating people here, to be proper Chinese citizens. No, Chinese people don't die here.

This can be valid statement and millions of people could be buried under the floor boards. China has a wonderful practice of making people "non-people" or we westerners would just view that concept as "non-Chinese". One example was during the 1 child policy, child 2, 3 and so on, wouldn't be granted Chinese citizenship, even though they were born in China, by Chinese parents. So, if you have an ethnic group you don't consider Chinese, because you can "take that away"... well of course they don't kill or harvest from Chinese people!

This is how communists communicate. This is soviet old hat doctrine. There are no Russian spies in America. Yes, because technically they're Soviets. There is no problem with any Russian nuclear power plants. Yea, because it was in the Ukraine. Or how about a shit ton of that denial from the recent blast in August until forced to admit it? Got to love their wording though on the people killed: “A bright memory of our comrades will forever live in our hearts." They died in an explosion... bright memory...that's fucked up by the way.

Lying without lying. We all use to make fun of this shit in the 90s and early 2000s. What happened in the 2010s? How did we all forget that communist regimes are the best at double speak? The only way to deal with this is call out their bullshit for exactly what it is and not back down.

Do you really believe that all the people actually incarcerated in these "re-education camps" will actually be killed directly or indirectly (forced labour, starvation) ?

If it is the case then I agree it would be comparable to holocaust or other genocides. But it is not what is happening at the moment, and I am convinced it won't happen (there has been no mass murdering in Tibet afaik)

Yes if given the chance. Economically it's actually difficult to do so, as the Germans and Soviets learned. If you don't have to hide, it makes it even easier. And denial rhetoric, which has never changed, helps them greatly in achieving that goal.

"Well, we don't have evidence that these camps involve killings. So, we're not going to investigate it. We're going to do business as usual."

As a Polish-American, here's a fun one. Look up Jan Karski. The dude that personally witnessed the extermination camp atrocities, escaped and reported to Western Allies in WW2. Even met with FDR. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter who heard the reports, "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference."

Saying you don't believe someone is the same as thinking they're lying. "I believe you, I just don't think you're telling the truth." Doesn't make sense. "I don't believe you, but I think you're telling the truth". Doesn't make sense either.

But this is why I get fired up to all Hell about this stuff. You don't want to believe it. Look up BBC reports of interviews with people who got out of these camps in China. I mean, if there's organ harvesting, I highly doubt they're waiting for a natural death. That's all we know right now. It's supremely hard to believe it can stop there.

History never, ever changes. It's just different names, different faces and different blood spilled. But it's always the same stories and the same lies.