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Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by rayiner on Monday October 07, 2019 @07:44AM (#21179664)
For public transit, they are very large compared to road subsidies. In New York it’s $0.35 per passenger mile: https://iurd.berkeley.edu/wp/2010-04.pdf. Direct road subsidies are about $0.02 per passenger mile. Nationally, road spending is 3-5x higher than transit spending, but accounts for 50x more passenger miles.

Even when you add in externalities (climate change, etc.) road subsidies are about $0.10-0.20 per passenger mile. (Of course, electricity on the east coast isn’t generated from renewable sources, so you have to add pollution externalities to the subway too.)

Roads are cheap and not heavily subsidized when you account for how many people use them. There are pollution externalities, but those can be addressed by mandating electric cars without changing the basic structure of everyone having private vehicles.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by Retric on Monday October 07, 2019 @08:13AM (#21179850)
That ignores the real cost of roads in cities is lost revenue from all that land. Ignoring of course how people would get around the city without roads.

NYC for example has over 6,000 miles of road * a very conservative 60 feet ignoring sidewalks is ~40,000 acres or 20% of the city. Central Park by comparison is only 842 acres. As Property taxes add up to ~55 Billion per year that’s (55/.8*.2) ~= 13.8 billion in lost revenue per year.

There are of course options to build more roads underground, but then they start costing as much as subway systems.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by conanbatt on Monday October 07, 2019 @08:53AM (#21180158)
Other land is more valuable because of the roads, so this is an unclear point.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by Retric on Monday October 07, 2019 @09:12AM (#21180354)
Roads which could in theory be built underground at extreme expense. Losing that land is cost effective, but that does not mean it's free, just a hidden opportunity cost. Further, subway systems also increase property values, that’s rarely considered part of the equation.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by DiogenesKynikos on Monday October 07, 2019 @11:04AM (#21181691)
You're not taking into account the fact that rail transit is primarily in cities, where costs are high. You can't compare cost per passenger-mile for roads in upstate NY and subways in Manhattan.

> Roads are cheap and not heavily subsidized when you account for how many people use them.

[citation needed]. You haven't said that fraction of road costs are covered by subsidies (e.g., by property taxes). I suspect it's a substantial fraction.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by kiliantics on Monday October 07, 2019 @10:42AM (#21181411)
> Roads are cheap and not heavily subsidized when you account for how many people use them.

Your whole point depends on the fact that almost everyone uses roads and of course everyone uses roads when there are no great alternatives. If things were structured differently, the same could probably be said for other transit options.

Bike lanes. for instance, are ridiculously cheap from every perspective, have none of the externality costs you mention, but no one can bike safely as of now and therefore much fewer choose to do so than the infrastructure could support.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by rayiner on Monday October 07, 2019 @10:52AM (#21181549)
No, it’s based on cost divided by usage. It’s not like there is a ton of underutilization of the NYC Subway and per-person per-mile costs would go down with economies of scale. Rail is just really expensive.

Biking is cheap only if your time is worth nothing. It’s also untenable given the climate of most of the US (much wider temperature variation than in Europe where biking is more common), and the physical fitness of your average American.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways (2018) by DiogenesKynikos on Monday October 07, 2019 @11:09AM (#21181745)
> Rail is just really expensive.

How much would an equivalent amount of road capacity cost in NYC?

(For the sake of argument, ignore the fact that such an insane amount of road capacity is probably physically impossible in NYC without knocking down half the city)