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Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by naasking on Sunday October 06, 2019 @10:52AM (#21172405)
I wonder how this impacts debugging. It kind of rubs me the wrong way too. Typically, robust security is about keeping things simple so they can be audited or verified. Pretty cool results though.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by sanxiyn on Sunday October 06, 2019 @11:02AM (#21172466)
I think this depends on what you think of ASLR. If ASLR rubs you the wrong way, this will too.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @11:44AM (#21172711)
This looks like it goes way beyond ASLR.

There are a series of different protections they are doing. It's not clear if they intend them to be uniquely switchable or if they were just separating them to indicate which attack techniques require which protections.

For example it appears to combat ROP they are additionally encrypting the code segment of the program and decrypting on an as needed basis. I am absolutely sure this would make debugging more difficult. It wouldn't be used on a debug build though so I guess the question is how often would you find yourself debugging a production executable.

I admit I didn't read it in depth and may have missed something but I wonder if they are doing something similar for dynamic libraries or if it relies on the code being available at compile time. If not then I'm sure someone clever will still get around it with ROP.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by monocasa on Sunday October 06, 2019 @12:38PM (#21173063)
The debugger doesn't really rely on the code segment being readable generally.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @02:19PM (#21173788)
You are conflating the act of debugging with the operation of a "debugger".

Sure you can start at 0 and step forward one instruction at a time, but how often do you do that without at least looking at the code?

Not being able to look ahead or behind but only within what is actively on the stack is certainly a limiting factor in debugging.

It is of course a problem that has been solved before. Someone would develop an unpacker/decrypter for it at some point and make this trivial, but that would still be an added level of complexity.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by monocasa on Sunday October 06, 2019 @02:35PM (#21173912)
You have access to the binary itself, you don't need to read it out of the debuggee process.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @02:47PM (#21174043)
I agree. I'm not sure I understand your point though. This isn't contrary to anything I said. I mention unpacking which would be a pre-debugger process.

I believe you are just being pedantic about my use of the word "debugging" to include things like unpacking, static analysis, and a variety of tools and processes used.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by monocasa on Sunday October 06, 2019 @03:04PM (#21174203)
The binaries aren't preencrypted here, the dynamic nature is the whole point. There's nothing to unpack since you just reference the binary, and no added work for the debugger.

So when you say

> For example it appears to combat ROP they are additionally encrypting the code segment of the program and decrypting on an as needed basis. I am absolutely sure this would make debugging more difficult.

It's just not true.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @03:42PM (#21174534)
So yes, you are correct it's being encrypted dynamically at the hardware level.

You just debug in a system without these protections turned on then.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by monocasa on Sunday October 06, 2019 @04:02PM (#21174696)
No, I'm saying you don't have to turn off these protections.

Like, can you give an example of a debugging task you have carried out that requires reading the code segment of the running process?

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @04:40PM (#21174968)
Required? No, but I didn't say impossible. I said "more difficult".

Made easier by? Most everything ever loaded in a debugger.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by hleach on Sunday October 06, 2019 @05:44PM (#21175388)
Just for an example. How about debugging a non trivial issue between a program and a dynamically loaded library.

You can't just scan the IAT/PLT. You are going to have to find load points or manually step through, and maybe calculate function offsets in the library. Not impossible at all.

It is however something you could have just quickly glanced at and found otherwise.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by ngneer on Monday October 07, 2019 @02:00PM (#21183969)
The article reads like a brute force approach to secure design, sprinkling randomization everywhere. Performance results are promising, though.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by bearer_token on Sunday October 06, 2019 @04:23PM (#21174841)
Hmm, like Shape Security did with web elements, this appears to do with hardware elements.

Seems promising, but not the level of enterprise architecture most at risk.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by jngreenlee on Sunday October 06, 2019 @12:58PM (#21173223)
Wonder if the commercial Morpheus will have a challenge with this naming (https://www.morpheusdata.com/, "Next-gen multi-cloud management platform for Hybrid IT and DevOps automation")
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by qplex on Sunday October 06, 2019 @01:27PM (#21173436)
Morpheus is the ancient greek god of sleep and dreams.

The etymology fits better in The Matrix than either of these projects.

Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by pfortuny on Sunday October 06, 2019 @10:49AM (#21172371)
Impressive. I wonder why RISC-V only?
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by DSingularity on Sunday October 06, 2019 @10:52AM (#21172408)
Morpheus modified hardware to accelerate the procedures which randomly alter the system stack parameters that attackers learn by probing the system. They used risc-v for this prototype.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by sanxiyn on Sunday October 06, 2019 @01:31PM (#21173475)
Note that no hardware engineering (say, writing HDL, not to speak of tapeout) was done. It was implemented only in simulator.
Re:Morpheus: A Vulnerability-Tolerant Secure Architecture [pdf] by blue9057 on Sunday October 06, 2019 @11:42AM (#21172694)
I would like to hack this CPU..