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Re:Galactic Algorithm by asdaddasdad on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:10AM (#21164526)
I've never understood the "number of the atoms in the universe" argument. The number of states the universe can be in doesn't seem to be equal to the number of atoms. For example, just two atoms could encode lots of numbers simply by using their distance. Quantum physics would affect it, but I mean in principle: we are not switching atoms on and off to encode state.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by Retric on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:46AM (#21164656)
It’s 2^1729 digits, (vastly) more digits than there are atoms in the universe.

The vastly bit is kind of an understatement.

Each stable isotope is indistinguishable from every other carbon isotope. So, you can probably encode a few bits per atom assuming you can somehow read this data. However they are talking vastly larger numbers of digits here. Where there are only ~10^80 digits worth of atoms in the visible universe, but hey bump that to 10^90 it does not help.

Sure you might encode 10^6 or hell I will give you 10^100 bits of data per atom or something but that’s not even close to helpful. It’s still on the order of K atoms in the universe and you want to encode 10^400+ * K bits of data. So each atom needs to encode 10^400+ bits and remember each stable isotope is indistinguishable from every other atom of that stable isotope.

Re:Galactic Algorithm by nine_k on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:58PM (#21168538)
You forgot about ordering.

8 binary bits in order can encode 256 states, as if every bit was capable of encoding 32 states.

Re:Galactic Algorithm by Retric on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:22PM (#21169188)
Yea, that specific number fits into 2 kilobytes of memory, but it’s so large it’s hard to compare it to anything.

Which is why I suggest comparing it to the number of bits required to encode the universe. If all you wanted was to store a single arbitrary number and could read write the universe you could do anything out to 2^(10^(80 * k)) where k is larger than 1 but I suspect below 100.

Re:Galactic Algorithm by bkanber on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:55PM (#21166924)
It's really just a phrase used nearly-rhetorically in order to convey the vast scope of a thing. Everyone understands that the number of atoms in the universe is a huge number, so it's a good benchmark.

When people use this phrase they're not trying to claim that the number of atoms in the universe is directly related to the problem at hand; they're just trying to convey scale.

Re:Galactic Algorithm by lonelappde on Saturday October 05, 2019 @08:41AM (#21165174)
It's not states, it's logarithmic of states (# of dimensions of finite size) . Think about writing down a number. One atom per digit is a pretty natural heuristic for the optimal spatial cost of information. Yes you can get clever, but there's no point, were already at astronomical levels of imprecision.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by asdaddasdad on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:29AM (#21165376)
As I said, one atom per digit is not really natural. Just two atoms could encode an infinite number of numbers, by measuring their distance. Well except quantum physics might get in the way, not allowing us to measure with arbitrary precision. But that would be another argument.

Another argument would perhaps be the energy required to do the computation. Maybe that relates more directly to the number of atoms in the universe, via Einstein's equation?

Re:Galactic Algorithm by laretluval on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:33PM (#21167448)
> Well except quantum physics might get in the way,

This is a pretty huge well except. When people talk about information that can be stored in the universe this is exactly the limitation they have in mind.

Re:Galactic Algorithm by comboy on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:47AM (#21164661)
It's just there for a reference, maybe a better one would be Kurzweil's ultimate laptop (made from the whole universe). But the interesting part is that I don't think the ultimate laptop takes into account interactions and state between atoms. AFAIR it assumes computation is done on every available dimension (like electron spin) but not on how atoms move and interact with each other. Intuitively it shouldn't make much difference though.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by marcosdumay on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:22AM (#21165339)
The number of digits of the possible interactions between the atoms is still proportional to the number of atoms.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by asdaddasdad on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:35AM (#21165409)
What counts as an interaction? It seems to me there can be an infinite number of interactions between just two atoms.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by platz on Saturday October 05, 2019 @10:05AM (#21165548)
Number of states of the universe is a quantum value, not a classical one.
Re:Galactic Algorithm by asdaddasdad on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:01PM (#21167934)
So what quantum value is it? Shouldn't the argument then at least say "the number is greater than the number of possible states of the universe", or something like that?
Re:Galactic Algorithm by marzell on Saturday October 05, 2019 @11:06AM (#21165921)
How would you read that? (Distance between two distinct atoms) doesn't seem practical
Re:Galactic Algorithm by asdaddasdad on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:00PM (#21167926)
Doing computations with single atoms also doesn't sound very practical.

Measuring distances, I suppose there could be numerous ways, like measuring the gravity or electric pull (not sure what it is called in English). I think only Quantum theory says we can not measure to arbitrary precision, or at least if we do, there are other issue. Still, that would be another argument than simply pointing at the number of atoms.