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Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by aazaa on Friday October 04, 2019 @03:49PM (#21161248)
> Carell, an organic chemist, and his collaborators have now demonstrated a chemical pathway that — in principle — could have made A, U, C and G (adenine, uracil, cytosine and guanine, respectively) from basic ingredients such as water and nitrogen under conditions that would have been plausible on the early Earth. The reactions produce so much of these nucleobases that, millennium after millennium, they could have accumulated in thick crusts, Carell says. His team describes the results in Science on 3 October.

> The results add credence to the ‘RNA world’ hypothesis, says Carell, who is at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich in Germany. ...

It's worth noting that what was made were nucleobases - flat very low molecular weight molecules - that when attached to ribose yield nucleotides.

It is nucleotides, not nucleobases, that form RNA.

The "RNA world hypothesis" still needs to explain where the ribose came from, how it was joined with the bases that were supposedly littering the Earth's surface, and how the resulting nucleotides started spontaneously assembling themselves through combination with phosphate into polymers.

That's a very, very tall order in chemistry.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by bduerst on Friday October 04, 2019 @04:02PM (#21161374)
I agree, but keep in mind abiogenesis is probably one of the tallest orders for chemistry. I'm glad scientists are at least exploring possible explanations, even if it means possibly disproving the mechanisms.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by SomeOldThrow on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:30AM (#21164134)
What are the alternatives? Even with panspermia life would have had to begin elsewhere. The universe would have been too hot at the Big Bang to support organic molecules if that theory is true. Even with “intelligent design” the intelligence would have its own heritage and origin. The implications of an alternative to abiogenesis seem outside the realm of scientific inquiry entirely. Is the desire here a coherent, detailed narrative for how we went from hot plasma to RNA?
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by Smithalicious on Saturday October 05, 2019 @07:02AM (#21164874)
>Even with “intelligent design” the intelligence would have its own heritage and origin

Is this really a given? Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself. Or, alternatively, everything in the universe has a history stretching back infinitely far, but that's equally incomprehensible and still allows you to perform the same "trick" (in this case: life has always existed).

Not saying that I believe in intelligent design, but in this case it seems to me that it does answer a question without creating any new ones.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by dTal on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:29PM (#21167100)
Without creating any new ones? I have quite a lot of questions for our erstwhile intelligent designer...

If you're happy to entertain a causeless cause to explain life, why make it an intelligent designer, a very complicated object? Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause? A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe. All 'intelligent design' does is move the problem (and amplify it).

I think an intelligent designer feels simpler to a human because "conscious entity" is implemented as a conceptual primitive in our minds, for obvious evolutionary reasons. The idea of a non-corporeal mind spontaneously arising feels more plausible than a single-celled organism spontaneously assembling, because we need many more symbols to represent the latter. But it's a misleading perception.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by ibra77 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:02PM (#21168264)
> Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause?

Because everything we know about this universe needs a cause, nothing in this universe is causeless, so you can't simply say that "something" inside that universe is causeless.

And everything we know about life screams causality, from the need to eat and drink to generate energy, to sex for reproduction. If life can actually be causeless why is it so fragile and dependent on so many things to keep itself from death?

> A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe.

A cell is also not capable of creating itself out of nothing.

Your lack of knowledge/understanding about how can something create the universe is not a justification for assuming that it created itself.

You need a causeless cause (otherwise we wouldn't exist), so you either choose it to be the universe itself (which is a wild guess with zero evidence and hence not even scientific as you claim), or it is God (and yes you can't and will never understand how it is the first cause)

I'd rather believe in God and his messages to us that brought actual evidence, than believe in an unconscious universe creating itself with no evidence.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by dTal on Sunday October 06, 2019 @10:25AM (#21172218)
To be clear, I think that both cells and gods are far too complex to be satisfyingly acausal. I'm not willing to entertain more than a few bits (in the information-theory sense) of acausality.

Of course, belief in God is an emotionally charged topic. Many people rely on their belief for many things, and trying to argue against it is seldom productive - I'm hesitant to engage for that reason. You're free to believe what you'd like. But, since you've brought up "evidence"

I don't agree that there is more evidence for God creating the universe than there is for some kind of spontaneous event. For a start, the existence of the universe is extremely verifiable, much more so than God - no matter how much you believe in the "messages". For another, the universe appears to governed by very simple rules of physics (although not quite simple enough for my "several bits" threshold of acausality, just yet). Attempting to explain a fairly simple phenomenon that definitely exists with a very complex phenomenon of uncertain existence doesn't seem to add any explanatory power, and in fact just multiplies entities unnecessarily. All you've done there is take the mystery, put it in a box labeled "God" (along with a bunch of other things), and then said we're not supposed to look inside the box.

Addendum - I don't think the universe needs a "cause", per se - causality is related to the arrow of time, and that is a property internal to the universe. That's not to say that nothing needs explaining, but I think we should focus on "simplicity" rather than "causality".

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by doliveira on Sunday October 06, 2019 @03:06PM (#21174221)
How does shortening "The Thing That Made The Things For Which There Is No Known Maker And Causes And Directs Events We Can't Otherwise Explain" to "God" actually brings any knowledge whatsoever? You didn't discover anything new.

It's much more honest to say "we don't know yet".

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by Smithalicious on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:04PM (#21167613)
I agree completely with your points on complexity, but I also don't see why the causeless cause would more plausibly be simple rather than complex. In fact, I think a simple origin creates more problems than a complex origin; if the origin is simple, you need to explain why the universe is complex.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by dTal on Sunday October 06, 2019 @09:47AM (#21171980)
We should seek to minimize incidental complexity; this is what an "explanation" is. "Explaining" the complexity of the universe by moving that complexity wholesale into an entity you're not allowed to ask questions about, doesn't actually "explain" anything at all.

Fortunately, there's an abundance of evidence that complex phenomena can (and do, more often than not) arise from simple rules. Apart from this being the goal of all physics, at which it has been wildly successful, we can find examples all over mathematics. The cellular automaton "Rule 90" is a nice visual example of this: the rules are only a few bits and the initial state is a single cell, but the behavior is a tantalizing mix of ordered structures on the micro scale and chaos on the macro scale - a suggestive metaphor for our own universe.

If you saw a picture of a section of Rule 90 without knowing what it was, and tried to explain it, which explanation feels more satisfying? A mathematical rule + initial conditions that fit into a few bits? Or "someone drew it in an image editor because they thought it looked pretty"? Which has more predictive power?

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by SomeOldThrow on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:27PM (#21166755)
> Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself.

Why not have the creator exist inside of time, or around it, or beside it? Maybe all existence was just out to tea right then with its creator, because the creator’s very attached to a particular tea flavor only found on earth, but will later be the creator, and will one day be in between two dozen creators? These are valid phrases that do not refer to literal relations, like “I am beside myself”, or “snapped back to reality”—the spatial foundations of these linguistic concepts refer to distance and spatial/time relations but don’t describe anything testable or reliably true. Intelligent design as a concept exploits language to imply absurd things, like that an omniscient omnipresent, omnipowerful, undetectable force is somehow also analogous to a mortal, finite, fallible, conscious human.

FWIW all this applies to holographic universe theories as well. The narrative makes 100% sense, but it doesn’t refer to empirically meaningful concepts.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by bduerst on Monday October 07, 2019 @12:56PM (#21183095)
Intelligent design is a misnomer which has many forms, but at it's core it challenges naturalistic causation for abiogenesis on prebiotic Earth.

It doesn't posit anything about other intelligence or life, just that the biological information necessary to kick off a self-replicating cell that undergoes evolution is too complex and too specific to happen randomly on Earth.

Even naturalistic panspermia theories are compatible with intelligent design, because it shifts the frame of abiogenesis to different conditions where cellular formation may actually become probable.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by qubex on Saturday October 05, 2019 @07:23AM (#21164939)
You’ve just run into the classical “Prime Mover” paradox of infinite regression.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by novalis78 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:38AM (#21164809)
If nothing else Panspermia allows for more time assuming a similar chemical process but over a much longer time horizon than ancient Earth.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by CobrastanJorji on Friday October 04, 2019 @07:19PM (#21162728)
Of course! Disproving known stuff is the best thing about science.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by benogorek on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:59AM (#21164866)
Well said. I feel that documentaries, etc. hand-wave away abiogenesis as it's just obvious that it happened, but there's this elephant in the room regarding the question of "why?" Great, you're a puddle of RNA compounds, all 4 in fact. Just sitting there. A puddle.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by Fjolsvith on Friday October 04, 2019 @04:56PM (#21161810)
Another way that nucleobases could have formed were in ice [1].

1. http://discovermagazine.com/2008/feb/did-life-evolve-in-ice

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by hinkley on Friday October 04, 2019 @04:45PM (#21161731)
There's a multiverse theory that there are many possible or existing universes with different physical constants, affecting everything from chemistry to orbital mechanics, and the reason we are having this conversation is because this universe was conducive to the formation of highly organized lifeforms capable of abstract thought.

In this line of reasoning "Why this set of constants" doesn't matter, because only the universes that could have observers would be observed.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by builderburg on Friday October 04, 2019 @04:49PM (#21161753)
The anthropic principle doesn't depend on a multiverse.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by chrisshroba on Friday October 04, 2019 @07:24PM (#21162746)
Not on a multiverse directly, but I think there is merit to @hinkley's claim. Say there's a one trillionth chance that life forms on an earth-like planet. There are likely trillions of earth-like planets, so chances are good (given the assumptions) that life forms on (at least) one of those planets. People on that planet (Earth) will marvel that life was created and search for reasons that seem plausible and likely for life to have been created given the initial conditions, but the initial assumption that the chances were minuscule still remains.

That is to say, we may not be able to easily predict and rationalize the beginning of life based on the initial conditions of the earth, because it is likely that it was an improbable fluke. It feels like a lottery winner trying to explain how they won the lottery.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by ramshorns on Friday October 04, 2019 @11:38PM (#21163662)
One of the things we're trying to figure out is how likely life is to form on an Earth-like planet. Of course it happened here, but we have no idea how common it is.

If we do the chemistry and figure out the mechanism and it looks like it happens all the time, then that tells us one more term in the Drake equation and gives us a reason to go check out the exoplanets.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by hinkley on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:33PM (#21166415)
I don’t disagree that having tighter bounds for the Drake equation is worth investing time and energy into.

I think we are going to find that the preconditions for life are quite common. The way solar fusion and supernovas work, what atoms are produced, The distribution of material and of those atoms within an accretion ring... if a planet forms at the right distance, then it will have the mix of chemical precursors.

Honestly I suspect the only thing that makes Earth rare is our freakishly large moon. If we can ever prove that life is viable on a timescale of eons on a planet without such huge tidal forces pumping the biosphere, that will be a revelation.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by goldenkey on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:34PM (#21167772)
So the moon stirred the biosoup in a way only an earthmoon sized moon could? And then life formed?
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by JohnJamesRambo on Friday October 04, 2019 @11:24PM (#21163634)
None of what you said remotely answers their question.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by tapland on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:27PM (#21162440)
Wow. You just found a reason for you not to get into science.

Now most of the rest of us are still curious to find out how stuff works around here.

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by hinkley on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:24PM (#21166359)
And I just found a reason you should adjust your chemical intakes. Too much caffeine or not enough? You don’t know me, or how I work.
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by kremi on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:32PM (#21168099)
Indeed, the author does recognize it:

> The next major problem Carell wants to tackle is what reactions could have formed the sugar ribose, which needs to link to nucleobases before RNA can form.

Possibly something resembling the Calvin cycle could be the start you talk of. [1]

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00239-018-9840-1

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by jeffdavis on Friday October 04, 2019 @07:18PM (#21162720)
What are the alternative theories that are more plausible, in your opinion?
Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by mrwhizzer on Friday October 04, 2019 @08:51PM (#21163134)
DNA teleportation.., the recent discussion on HN about the hydrophobic effect of DNA basically proves it is true... naysayers be damned!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_teleportation

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21051949

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cluster

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic_electric_effects.html

Re:Lab-made primordial soup yields RNA bases by rygh on Friday October 04, 2019 @10:39PM (#21163511)
First you have some shell script, then you have static code (dna)?