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Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by zxcvbn4038 on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:11AM (#21145334)
I once worked at Chase Manhattan Bank and one of their internal networking teams had a web site for wiring requests. They didn’t want to work too hard so their UI was designed to make data entry as slow as possible, mostly by using huge multi-level drop down lists where the slightest twitch would make them collapse and you would have to start over navigating through them, repeat a dozen times for every run of cable, several runs required to make an end to end connection. It wasn’t custom programming, just taking full advantage of the browsers of the era’s inability to render the UI component for that. So I was building out a data center and needed Something like forty thousand cables run which translated into around one hundred and fifty thousand segments. I tried to give this info via a spreadsheet but they were steadfast that the web interface was the only way they could receive it. So I wrote a script to just post the data directly without going through the UI, ran it, and went home. Turns out all their web form did was e-mail the values to a half dozen people. The e-mail system was Lotus Notes (dates this) so each person got their own copy and there was a lot of overhead. The sudden influx of a million e-mail messages brought down Chase’s email system for two thirds of the country. They spent days clearing the mail queue and recovering - they had to fly in IBM techs with suitcases full of disk drives to add the storage needed. Everyone who received the wiring requests spent days deleting them with new ones arriving as quickly as they deleted the old ones. Then when things were finally normal again they asked me to resend them my spreadsheet.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by osullivj on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:50AM (#21145549)
Wonderful story - thanks! I was at Chase Manhattan in London from 1997-2000, and remember the Lotus Notes system well. I had Win NT and Solaris desktop systems. There was an appalling timesheet system called Agresso, the most counterintuitive Windows GUI I ever encountered. I guess the lesson is that mgmt diktat in corp envs repeatedly inflicts crappy solutions on captive users. Plus ca change!
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by marapuru on Thursday October 03, 2019 @09:21AM (#21146606)
No! It cannot be that Agresso was already around at that time. I still have to work with that horrific system, even though it is webbased now. It's still a horrible experience.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by klenwell on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:43AM (#21147564)
> There was an appalling timesheet system called Agresso, the most counterintuitive Windows GUI I ever encountered.

I love the idea that there was a terrible timesheet system called Agresso. And that it's still around today!

Some things do change with time. If this system was created today, I imagine it would be named something like quiesso or daisy.

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by gdhbcc on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:01AM (#21164703)
Actually I used to work for the company that makes it. It changed names some years ago and is now called "Unit4 Business World"

Small world

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by wtvanhest on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:30AM (#21148139)
Ted - Timesheet entry database
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by yesbabyyes on Friday October 04, 2019 @03:49AM (#21155652)
Agresso was my first job. I got to migrate customers off of Ingres, Sybase, Informix to either Oracle or SQL Server 6.5. After some time, I got the opportunity to build their Crystal Reports integration. This was 1997-1998.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by marapuru on Friday October 04, 2019 @03:57AM (#21155694)
Do you happen to know whether the back-end systems would still be the systems that you used to work on? I have a feeling it never really changed...
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by yesbabyyes on Friday October 04, 2019 @07:31AM (#21156584)
Sorry, I have no insight in that. When I was there we were just upgrading to Agresso 5, and as I remember it, it was pretty much a win32 app talking directly to the database. Not sure how much, if any, server part was there in between. So it has probably changed when they switched to web.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by riazrizvi on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:12AM (#21147139)
Heroic! Lotus Notes was such a pile of junk. Every time I used it for the simplest task, the combative UI would cause my blood pressure to spike up. I would calm myself down by imagining the blissful life of the ex JPMorganChase IT boss who greenlighted the purchase, living off his giant kickback on some Caribbean island.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by alexis_fr on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:47AM (#21148342)
Press F5 to refresh, like in every software. Except it closes Lotus Notes.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by stevesimmons on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:17PM (#21161991)
My favourite Lotus Notes fail was circa 2008, when the menu item for "Mark message as read" was next to "Mark all as read", which from memory was not undo-able.

It took just one slip of the finger to...

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by jedieaston on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:51AM (#21146364)
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by auxym on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:07PM (#21162320)
In 2015 I was working at a place (40k-employee multinational) that still used Notes and windows xp.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by jacobush on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:10PM (#21152799)
I thought IBM bought it and killed it
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by AlphaWeaver on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:07AM (#21146029)
This would be a good story for r/MaliciousCompliance!
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by AndrewStephens on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:27AM (#21148100)
Whole books could be written on the terribleness of Lotus Notes. For those too young to remember the 90s, LN really was as bad as everyone says, turning what should be simple (email, maybe a few custom forms) into swampy morasses of pain.

When intranet webapps came along everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief.

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by smacktoward on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:30AM (#21148135)
Notes was a double-edged sword. It could be as terrible as you've heard, but on the other had it also let non-programmers build surprisingly useful applications all by themselves. (Which is part of why it stuck around for so long -- being useful, those apps tended to get wedged into critical parts of the business process, which meant you couldn't just pull them out and throw them away.)
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by moonlighter on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:04PM (#21149938)
Notes was conceived in 1984 and at the time was an amazing platform which featured a secure client/server architecture, RSA encryption, data replication and offline support. Both the Notes client and the server (later renamed to Domino) needed to run on multiple platforms (Win 3.x, OS/2, Netware, NT, Alpha, RISC systems etc), and while the code was native C code on each platform, all UI of the client was implemented using an abstraction layer called NEM ("Notes Environment Manager"). Likewise, all database storage was abstracted in NSF ("Note Storage Facility"; and Notes databases to this day still have the .nsf extension). Long story short, the NEM layer was a trade-off between portability and consistency across platforms. And, Notes used F9 to refresh data, way before the Windows standard of F5 was a standard...

https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/lotus/library/ls-NDHistor...

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by AHThomas on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:26PM (#21150245)
What he said
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by godson_drafty on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:57PM (#21151413)
> When intranet webapps came along everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief.

Not entirely. Sometimes they were replaced by applets, which are just native application wrapped in a thin layer of html. This causes its own set of problems. At one place I worked (a large government agency), a critical spreadsheet ran as an applet which was only compatible with IE9. They couldn't upgrade anyone's PC's because they risked an auto-update of IE, which would break the ability to run that app.

At another job, a certain time tracking application ran as an applet, requiring a specific version of the jvm to be installed.

Deploying an application that runs in the browser using the browser's native capabilties - js, html, css works great. Using it to embed an applet doubles the misery, as in the short term management thinks they've purchased a portable, always-compatible "web-app", while what they've done is bought a native binary they can no longer properly provision their workstations to run.

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by pmarreck on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:00PM (#21148502)
> When intranet webapps came along everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief

Not so fast. As a web developer we still had to contend with the horror of IE5/6/7 for a few more years, and initially WITHOUT anything resembling the utility of something like JQuery!

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by tripzilch on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:04PM (#21151490)
I remember being happy when IE7 came out, because it fixed a bunch of CSS bugs in IE6, and also finally supporting PNG transparency meant that whole new kinds of design were actually possible ... feels so weird knowing what we can do today with CSS and be reasonably sure it works in three major browsers.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by pmarreck on Sunday October 06, 2019 @10:25AM (#21172222)
I was building "IE-only" internal web apps at the time (with increasing disgust) and having to support legacy browsers even if you knew they were just IE was hell. When I finally broke out into open-source and STILL had to support IE BUT ALSO firefox, safari and chrome (did chrome even exist yet? Mozilla maybe?)... it was not a happy time
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by shanemhansen on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:39PM (#21151925)
I had to do something similar once with FRRs (firewall rule requests) as a F50. There is one official way of requesting a FRR. What that way is a matter of some debate. Theoretically you file a JIRA ticket with fqdn, ip/mask, port, protocol info. Anyways cutting a long rant short I eventually had to write a script to generate 100 SRC X 10 DST X 2 ports rules as csv pulled into a spreadsheet.

After a couple days it was assigned to an engineer for implementation and of course the first thing he did was unflatten it.

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by simonebrunozzi on Thursday October 03, 2019 @09:15PM (#21153977)
> Then when things were finally normal again they asked me to resend them my spreadsheet.

Amazing story, and I'm sure they've learned their lesson :)

Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by choiway on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:18AM (#21148021)
Great story...thanks for sharing!
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by slothtrop on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:29AM (#21147367)
Damn funny
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by xRahul on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:51AM (#21145552)
That has got to be the worst system to not have any type of stop gate in the API.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by davinic on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:33PM (#21148862)
Sounds like there was no API. OP was just making POST requests directly to the server.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by mikepurvis on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:09AM (#21147117)
I mean yes... but recall that the entire point of the system was that it would make data entry slow. I think that whoever set it up probably felt that the clunky form was enough of a rate limiter and nothing further was needed on the back end.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by htfu on Thursday October 03, 2019 @11:29AM (#21148120)
Just to make sure I get this right - to make sure their team wouldn't get overwhelmed with work (how exactly? It's not like the demand for cable wiring would be too different at the end of a year in a frictionless system) they not only decided to create busywork for other departments, but this design also blew up impacting the entire company? Do you know if there were any consequences for whoever created this monstrosity?
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by zxcvbn4038 on Friday October 04, 2019 @09:01AM (#21157176)
No, this is every day in Chase. They are basically the McDonalds of the financial services industry - everybody works there at least once, most people move on to better things, what you have left are the ones who know they will never succeed anywhere else. We convinced one manager at Chase that the reason her application crashed so much was because there wasn't enough gigawatts to power the flex capacitors. The guy who they hired for IT security in my department was a bricklayer who ran around with a dog-eared copy of Computer Security For Dummies trying to find out where we were hiding the NFS so he could turn it off (we kept telling him we didn't use NFS and he didn't believe us, so the hunt continued). Probably the worst story was this really portly fellow who couldn't fit into the bathroom stalls, and was too lazy to walk across the floor to the bathroom that had a handicap stall he could fit in, so he would just sort of stand in front of the stall door and cut loose, and every night some poor cleaning lady had to deal with that and it didn't raise any eyebrows at all. Sounds like an NBC sitcom, but it was real, places like this really do exist, stuff like this really does happen.
Re:Ask HN: What are weird and/or novel ways to do web UIs? by htfu on Friday October 04, 2019 @12:26PM (#21159237)
Sounds less NBC and more (in fact exactly) like It’s Always Sunny. Specifically Charlie in the mailroom with Pepe Sylvia, and the pissing thing is just classic Frank.