News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomp on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:09AM (#21144481)
This is a typical "motte and bailey" conversational strategy. The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by krapp on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:20AM (#21146130)
>The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").

Almost any article you read about toxic masculinity and in every discussion where it comes up, proponents take pains to point out, often in laborious detail, and to futile effect, that the term isn't meant to assign toxicity to all masculine behaviors. One shouldn't need to provide a list of "non-toxic" masculine behaviors as well as a list of "toxic feminine" behaviors in order for the concept to be understood as presented.

The people using toxic masculinity in mainstream conversation to mean "all masculinity is toxic" are, primarily, its opponents, not its proponents.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:06AM (#21147072)
Actually one should provide exactly that, because otherwise the concept can be used to justify bullying.

"I don't like what you're doing" can become "That's toxic male behaviour" - which immediately politicises and amplifies something that may be a trivial personal/domestic disagreement.

As for toxic femininity - it seems it cannot exist. See e.g.

https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity

...which explicitly states that toxic femininity doesn't exist as a political phenomenon, and where toxic behaviour does happen (hardly ever...) it's the fault of patriarchy.

In this view all toxic gender behaviour is caused by masculinity.

The line between that and "Masculine behaviour is inherently toxic (unless controlled and directed by women)" is a very thin one.

These definitions concentrate on tribal/political stereotyping, not on the behaviours themselves.

The idea that some behaviours are toxic - and it doesn't matter who is doing them - seems to be a conceptual leap too far in these contexts.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by username90 on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:20AM (#21147258)
Pretty people has labeled all masculine traits as toxic, maybe not the same individuals but as a group they have. That is the problem with ill defined concepts, "toxic masculinity" is not a scientific term since people can interpret whatever they want as toxic.

A men's rights advocate could say that chivalry and self sacrifice is toxic masculinity since it puts a lot of unfair pressure on men.

A female feminist could say that locker room talk and objectification of women in games is toxic masculinity since it is hostile to women.

A male feminist could say that boys rough play is toxic masculinity since it hurts or leaves out those who want to do calmer things.

A pacifist could say that action games and contact sports are toxic masculinity since they promote violence.

A body image advocate could argue that huge muscles, strength and body building is toxic masculinity since it hurts the self esteem of overweight or scrawny men.

Divorced fathers could argue that traditional fatherhood as a money provider who aren't allowed to complain is toxic masculinity.

Extroverted people could argue that the male geek culture which avoid social contact toxic masculinity since they ruin the social atmosphere.

Introverted people could argue that male initiative taking for relationships is toxic masculinity since it bothers a lot of people who aren't interested.

Politicians could argue that male intellectual stubbornness and bias for action is toxic masculinity since it leads to shootings and terrorism.

So let me ask you, what part of masculinity can't be labeled toxic? I have seen all of the examples above in the wild. What are the examples of positive masculinity? Everyone has their own version of that as well. For example, many feminists thinks that positive masculinity is men helping women. But it is not healthy for men to be pressured to help women, so that masculine image is not very positive for men. Also I am pretty sure that there you can find people who would label any one of the above as positive masculinity. In other words, the term is meaningless as it is formulated today.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by brigandish on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:47PM (#21153076)
It would have made for a more persuasive rebuttal if you'd also included an example of non-toxic masculinity, don't you think?

Just one would do.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomlock on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:43PM (#21153838)
Seeking out mental health assistance more proactively, discussing mental health with their friends.
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by brigandish on Friday October 04, 2019 @02:36AM (#21155343)
1. These aren't masculine traits.

2. You appear to be seeking out a personal argument with me, I suggest you desist.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomlock on Friday October 04, 2019 @03:48AM (#21155650)
1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends.

2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by brigandish on Friday October 04, 2019 @09:29PM (#21163262)
> 1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower.

Behaviour, not identity.

> I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends.

Behaviour, not masculinity. Masculinity is "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men". I wish men would seek help when they're depressed but I'd rather that was a human trait than try and make it masculine through some Orwellian misnomer.

> 2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.

I'm not on a quest, I dislike conspiracy theories, you didn't produce an example of non-toxic masculinity, and I do wish you'd learn how to stop daemonising those who disagree with you.

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomlock on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:12AM (#21164544)
If you understood what toxic masculinity is you'd understand it entirely focuses on behaviour, and how those behaviours build male identity.
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by brigandish on Saturday October 05, 2019 @10:59AM (#21165879)
If only I understood! Please, supply a single example of non-toxic masculinity that doesn't require your redefinition of commonly understood words and maybe I'll be able to understand better. You can hardly blame me for misunderstanding something you fail so badly at elucidating.
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomlock on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:45PM (#21169286)
Toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall; this concept of toxic masculinity is not intended to demonize men or male attributes, but rather to emphasize the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition.

Wikipedia

Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by brigandish on Sunday October 06, 2019 @03:05AM (#21170331)
And the example of masculinity that is not toxic is…?
Re:No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy by tomlock on Sunday October 06, 2019 @05:38AM (#21170897)
The behaviour I mentioned above, which runs counter to the "self-reliance" mentioned in an example in the definition.