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Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by pessimizer on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @08:50PM (#21142485)
Oppenheimer and Einstein were very nice people who in general weren't in agreement with most of the policies of the governments that they helped develop killing machines for. Those governments knew this, and distrusted them for it.

Only some of us are sociopaths (a lot of people in tech, sadly), but most of us just compartmentalize and rationalize, with a special pitfall for the math-oriented is the truism that technology doesn't have moral implications in and of itself, just the uses to which it is put. The last is one of those things that people never bother to justify, they just think of it as an obvious implication of a impenetrable division between abstraction and the material world that is nevertheless marked by humans shuttling information between the two. To me, thinking of people this way is just warmed-over dualism.

If you introduce a technology into the world, you have to consider the possibilities every type of person with every possible aim having control of that technology. Not doing this is simply not scientific.

Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by wademealing on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:33PM (#21143346)
> If you introduce a technology into the world, you have to consider the possibilities every type of person

You can't.. the human mind simply can't understand every type of person or even 90% of every type of person. If this is a requirement for advancement nothing would ever get done due to the complexity of this part of the problem alone.

> with every possible aim

Again, we are limited beings this is not possible.

> having control of that technology. Not doing this is simply not scientific.

I'm going to disagree with your use of the term 'scientific in this case. The creation and use cases are entirely different steps in development.

The onus is not on the creator but the user. This is basis for modern law in the society we live in, we collectively choose to put this on the ' scientific community ' development will happen elsewhere and the moral civilization while nicer will remain in the stone age where it belongs.

Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by PavlovsCat on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @09:13PM (#21142611)
> People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own logic, that they are in fact autonomous. This particular rationalization is profoundly false. It is not true that science marches on in defiance of human will, independent of human will, that just is not the case. But it is comfortable, as I said: it leads to the position that "if I don't do it, someone else will."

> Of course if one takes that as an ethical principle then obviously it can serve as a license to do anything at all. "People will be murdered; if I don't do it, someone else will." "Women will be raped; if I don't do it, someone else will." That is just a license for violence.

> Other people say, and I think this is a widely used rationalization, that fundamentally the tools we work on are "mere" tools; This means that whether they get use for good or evil depends on the person who ultimately buys them and so on.

> There's nothing bad about working in computer vision, for example. Computer vision may very well some day be used to heal people who would otherwise die. Of course, it could also be used to guide missiles, cruise missiles for example, to their destination, and all that. You see, the technology itself is neutral and value-free and it just depends how one uses it. And besides -- consistent with that -- we can't know, we scientists cannot know how it is going to be used. So therefore we have no responsibility.

> Well, that is false. It is true that a computer, for example, can be used for good or evil. It is true that a helicopter can be used as a gunship and it can also be used to rescue people from a mountain pass. And if the question arises of how a specific device is going to be used, in what I call an abstract ideal society, then one might very well say one cannot know.

> But we live in a concrete society, [and] with concrete social and historical circumstances and political realities in this society, it is perfectly obvious that when something like a computer is invented, then it is going to be adopted will be for military purposes. It follows from the concrete realities in which we live, it does not follow from pure logic. But we're not living in an abstract society, we're living in the society in which we in fact live.

> If you look at the enormous fruits of human genius that mankind has developed in the last 50 years, atomic energy and rocketry and flying to the moon and coherent light, and it goes on and on and on -- and then it turns out that every one of these triumphs is used primarily in military terms. So it is not reasonable for a scientist or technologist to insist that he or she does not know -- or cannot know -- how it is going to be used.

-- Joseph Weizenbaum, http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html

Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by defen on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:52PM (#21143484)
Reminds me a lot of the Unabomber Manifesto, except 10 years earlier.
Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by PavlovsCat on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:22AM (#21145398)
Why would that be, and what would be your point of saying so?

edit: oh well then. Your comment reminds of this dude living in $town who was later found to have done this weird thing. Good talk.

Re:How We Justified Piling Debt on Poor Customers by defen on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:14PM (#21153649)
Um, kind of weird edit. All I mean is that both made the point that the "good" parts of technology cannot be separated from the "bad", and that people will rationalize their participation in the system.