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Re:To show or not to show work by dahart on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:15PM (#21121402)
> If a student can do it in their heads, then the work is too easy! [...] Instead of battling over “showing work,” simply increase the complexity of the problem until the student must do the work out to get it right.

This is a good idea, and having tried it, I know it sorta-kinda works a little. When I’ve tried it with my kids, what happens most often is one of two things. Sometimes if it gets too intimidating they give up and won’t try without hints. And sometimes it gets them to write some intermediate steps, but they still skip over the easy pieces, try to do 2 or 3 simplification steps at once and make mistakes. That should, you’d think, be convincing about the importance of writing down more granular steps, but for whatever reason they just hate making it mechanical and they keep resisting the idea of writing incremental steps. I’ve tried too many times to point out how much it help avoid mistakes, but they just think I’m a windbag and asking them to do boring things.

Re:To show or not to show work by viklove on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:28PM (#21121457)
Kids don't have mature facilities for self-motivation; you can't expect them just to do math problems because it's good for them. Tell them they can't do X until they finish 20 difficult math problems, and I guarantee they'll find a way to optimize their work habits.
Re:To show or not to show work by swiley on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @02:11AM (#21122488)
Sometimes they’ll find a way to optimize the work away.

I still think it’s better to give them tests and show them that the only way to pass the test is by practicing before hand.

Re:To show or not to show work by viraptor on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @08:25AM (#21124536)
That may backfire. I remember my physics homework/tests and going to absurd levels to satisfy the requirements and not do the boring work. I did things like a freehand graph with important points marked and a curve labelled "parabola", because that's the information the teacher was after and spending time actually drawing it to scale and precisely was boring. (after 20th time or so)

I actually lost interest in the subject around that time, even after scoring high enough in regional competition previously to get a free choice of any high school.

So watch out, you may kill someone's enthusiasm by making them practice simple things the way you think is best to satisfy some silly rules. I ended up more happy not getting full marks on something I could do well than showing the work.

Re:To show or not to show work by swiley on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @02:28PM (#21128916)
Yeah that's not really what I meant by "practice." I meant just give them the text book and tell them to make sure they understand how to do the problems without looking them up, and that the best way to do that is to do the "practice problems" that look difficult.
Re:To show or not to show work by TeMPOraL on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @07:15AM (#21124100)
> Sometimes they’ll find a way to optimize the work away.

As would plenty of other adults, myself included. Whether that's evidence that children don't have much different self-motivation than adults, or that my self-motivation skills are still childish - that I'm not sure.

Re:To show or not to show work by dahart on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:32PM (#21121481)
These days it only seems to work when X is have their iPhone back. ;)
Re:To show or not to show work by seventhtiger on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @01:25AM (#21122291)
When I tutor my siblings if the steps aren't satisfactory I make them repeat the answer from scratch. I immediately stop them when they're taking too many shortcuts. "Oh I just forgot this!" "Yes, now start over."

Each shortcut or omitted step is more mental load and for these beginners they will slip. Just missing a negative sign or adding a constant would cost the points on the test. Worse, if the tests are multiple choice questions (which are stupid imo) they get 0.

So to build their mechanical ability I don't even allow them to show how smart they are. I stop them when they're being too smart. I only reward complete steps.

It sounds rough and it kind of is but after using these methods for years they still come to me and ask me to tutor them, rather than our parents or a private tutor. They know that my diligent checking of their work cuts down on their study time and I'm still tutoring them into college now.

Re:To show or not to show work by virgilp on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @02:42AM (#21122613)
> they still come to me and ask me to tutor them, rather than our parents or a private tutor.

I wouldn't read too much into it... there's often times other factors involved. Just because you are a sibling and not a parent might be reason enough, at some age, to prefer you; and by college, it may already be a habit.

(not sure about the "private tutor' part, have they actually tried that, and was the tutor ok? because normally that's what a kid would prefer, since he/she doesn't feel the need to challenge the tutor's authority. Maybe a really poor experience/ personality mismatch with one private tutor? ).

Re:To show or not to show work by seventhtiger on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @03:16AM (#21122776)
I coach young people in other fields like public speaking so I have some skill in it. I use similar techniques.

The private tutors they've tried are actually math teachers. I think teaching a class is a very different skillset than tutoring.

According to my brother he came to the realization that an hour studying with me makes up for multiple hours with the tutors. I'm stubborn and authoritative when I coach, I challenge them and it takes me a lot of effort to butt heads with a teen, but I think they see the results.

Math is tough in that you don't get to enjoy it until mechanical concerns become an afterthought. So when my youngest sister, who initially didn't enjoy math, said "wow that felt good" about solving a problem I knew I was going somewhere.

Re:To show or not to show work by boulos on Monday September 30, 2019 @11:19PM (#21121730)
Sadly for you, Dave, the teachers from my youth are likely retired and/or dead. But, fear not, I didn’t care to “show my work” until late high school when it was mandated (as a comment upthread points out, for credit).

I ran into a situation that isn’t described: even if you’re right, they want you to prove that you didn’t cheat. Thanks to the absurdity of physics in imperial units, you can almost always show some bland dimensional conversions, but generally they love seeing an explicit change of basis for say straightforward calculus problems.

tl;dr: embrace your inner windbag, it won’t matter as long as they’re right (and one day they may appreciate it when they’re slow like us!)