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Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by pbreit on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:33PM (#21117128)
How is this comment relevant to WeWork? How has it "cheated"? It definitely is early/first and very smart.
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:38PM (#21117173)
> How is this comment relevant to WeWork? How has it "cheated"?

They borrowed short, lent long and then pretended it was as sustainable business. To their credit, they abundantly disclosed their shenanigans. (I haven't seen any evidence suggesting investors can reasonably claim fraud.) But they were playing fast and loose with basic economics.

At its core, sure, WeWork could have been a business. Its thesis, that office space should be treated as a service versus capital expense, is plausible. But there was so much garbage--the party-at-work hypothesis, thoughtless cross-selling, nepotism, consciousness nonsense, self-dealing, et cetera--that the value got diluted while the price was pumped.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by ethbro on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:55PM (#21117326)
Furthermore, and this to me is the most damning indictment: where's the moat?

SoftBank and Masayoshi Son's hypothesis is:

1. Find a market which can be captured by a business with access to massive capital

2. Provide massive capital

3. Extract profits once a monopoly has been established

WeWork is a terrible example of this, because in no way does scale give them unique advantages. And furthermore, "scale" in this context means "scale in the office property market" -- that's a pretty big pool to expect to overflow.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by mikeryan on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:22PM (#21117608)
I can't quantify it - but WeWork's scale does give them a bit of an advantage.

I run a small digital agency, as a WeWork member when I'm on the road being able to know I can find and book space for meetings or work is invaluable. We've also spun up offices in new cities (Mexico City for us) easily and quickly with a confidence in the level of service and support that we're getting.

There is a premium for this and we've moved on from those offices sometimes as we settle in. But its not a non-existent advantage.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:30PM (#21117699)
> WeWork's scale does give them a bit of an advantage

Within the original thesis per se it gave them a possible demand-side advantage. (Commercial real estate is too big for any meaningful sell-side advantages.)

Being able to say "let's open a branch in Singapore and see how it goes for 6 months" with a few clicks is quite awesome. If I trusted it to be around in a few years, it would change how I think about deploying people.

To be able to deliver that value prop, you need seats available in Singapore. (And New York and London and Dubai.) Hence a potential scaling advantage.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by semi-extrinsic on Monday September 30, 2019 @02:05PM (#21118040)
> Being able to say "let's open a branch in Singapore and see how it goes for 6 months" with a few clicks is quite awesome.

I'd have thought that for most businesses, the two big obstacles for doing this are a) getting skilled people to suddenly move to Singapore at your will, and b) getting the Singapore office well integrated with the rest of the company.

Compared to those two, setting up an office lease is about as hard as tying your shoelaces.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:11PM (#21119240)
> Compared to those two, setting up an office lease is about as hard as tying your shoelaces

This has not been my experience. Given how localized real estate markets are, they haven't been subjected to efficiency-driving global competition. The result is every market has hidden oddities. Little details that are a nuisance if you know about them but a disaster if you bumble through the process.

For long-term commitments to a market, sure, it makes sense to own your plot. But for short-term assignments? Toes in the water? Being able to spin up an office with flown-in staff committed to for the short-term, to develop leads and/or find those skilled locals to hire, is a tactical advantage which doesn't presently exist.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by konschubert on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:10PM (#21117458)
Same for Uber.
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by ethbro on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:18PM (#21117549)
I was going to include Uber, but there's an argument that creating a realtime, massively-scaled fare-setting infrastructure is a moat.

Uber's product isn't rides. Uber's product is being the market-maker between riders and drivers.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by rauchp on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:42PM (#21117811)
Right, but Lyft has the same product. Given enough time, we might see other ride-share companies succeed with the same (yet inferior) tech servicing specific cities.

Austin has a non-profit rideshare business that matches riders and drivers.

http://www.rideaustin.com

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by ralph84 on Monday September 30, 2019 @02:05PM (#21118041)
> They borrowed short, lent long and then pretended it was as sustainable business.

You've just described almost every company in the financial sector.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by gbronner on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:45PM (#21119509)
I think that they got rid of the rubber ruler, and many of the other asymmetrical bargaining issues that consumers of space faced against large landlords.

They do have some scale, and there's always the idea that you can move to a different office or reconfigure your space quickly. This has real value. Just not $50 billion worth.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by number_six on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:21PM (#21117600)
There's also the Softbank buys of equity at consistently higher and higher valuations that they themselves were creating.

Matt Stoller wrote a great post about it:

https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/wework-and-counterfeit-ca...

"Generally speaking, Softbank’s model is to manipulate private capital markets as a way of drowning out competitors with cash. For instance, there were several ‘rounds’ of WeWork investment where Softbank was buying more shares at higher valuations. WeWork ostensibly became more valuable because Son said it was more valuable, and bought shares for higher prices. And since there was no public market for these shares, the pricing of the shares was totally arbitrary. WeWork then used this cash to underprice competitors in the co-working space market, hoping to be able to profit later once it had a strong market position in real estate subletting or ancillary businesses.

Engaging in such a strategy used to be illegal, and was known as predatory pricing. There are laws, like Robinson-Patman and the Clayton Act, which, if read properly and enforced, prohibit such conduct. The reason is very basic to capitalism. Capitalism works because companies that thrive take a bunch of inputs and create a product that is more valuable than the sum of its parts. That creates additional value, and in such a model companies have to compete by making better goods and services.

What predatory pricing does is to enable competition purely based on access to capital. Someone like Neumann, and Son’s entire model with his Vision Fund, is to take inputs, combine them into products worth less than their cost, and plug up the deficit through the capital markets in hopes of acquiring market power later or of just self-dealing so the losses are placed onto someone else."

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by pbreit on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:28PM (#21117672)
So not really any "cheating", right?
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:35PM (#21117737)
> So not really any "cheating", right?

No evidence of fraud, no. But cheating is not necessarily fraud because not all rules are codified as law. There is cleverly devious cheating, like a lot of what Gates and Jobs did in the 80s. That's cheating, but it's clever and it's cute so we think of it positively.

Then there's cheating as in pretending to defy the laws of economics, which is what WeWork did. They were trying to scale out of a business that loses money on the marginal dollar. Nothing illegal about that. But together with Masa Son's spigot of Saudi cash and Neumann's rampant self dealing, I'd go ahead and qualify it as cheating.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by pbreit on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:49PM (#21119052)
Wut?

WeWork's revenues already cover its rent costs even at just 70% occupancy.

I still don't see this "cheating" you speak of.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by gtirloni on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:36PM (#21117152)
Early/first in what exactly?
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by pbreit on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:30PM (#21117692)
Massive paradigm shift in office leasing.
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by munk-a on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:38PM (#21117764)
Please elaborate in what was innovative here, their technical infrastructure seems to be nothing to write home about and well appointed office leasing has been around for quite some time.

The social focus is indeed different but I wouldn't call that alone a massive paradigm shift.

Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by pbreit on Monday September 30, 2019 @07:46PM (#21120725)
The friction eliminated and expanded flexibility from normal office leasing was quite pronounced. Add to that a huge block of delighted customers. Not sure how you are defining innovation but there is clearly a lot going on there.
Re:WeWork says will file to withdraw IPO by munk-a on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:33PM (#21117722)
Honestly, it wasn't even smart. And the thing it was first at was social focused co-working spaces, there have been more bare bones offerings for co-working spaces for a long time, WeWork just tried to appeal to that SV niche of people that'd like the folks they're subletting with to be the kind they'd like to share a beer with.