What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change?

Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by gridlockd on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:53AM (#21115984)

Global warming is a trend that can now, with thirty years of hindsight, be clearly identified. However, many people on both sides made lots of predictions that didn't come to pass, so some amount of skepticism towards certain more alarmist claims is warranted. It's too convenient to just lump any skepticism into the "denier" and "bad person" box, and that's exactly what happens.

It's also dishonest to point out that the fossil industry has a clear interest, while ignoring that the renewables industry also has such an interest. A lot of business is being made peddling non-solutions to a problem that might actually be unsolvable.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by beat on Monday September 30, 2019 @11:03AM (#21116076)

It's perfectly fair, however, to point out the difference in economic scale and political influence between the fossil fuel industry and the renewable energy industry. The fossil fuel industry is rather larger, and rather more powerful. And by "rather", I mean "tremendously".

It is also perfectly fair to point out the relative likelihood that international political problems around fossil fuels are far more likely to cost the US in blood and treasure than political problems around renewables. We don't go to war for wind and sunshine. Meanwhile, we spent hundreds of billions a year as a nation - not to mention a toll of American military and non-US civilian lives - in order to maintain our semblance of control over flow of oil.

You want to be honest? Sure, let's be honest.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by gridlockd on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:06PM (#21119206)

One side may have more "bribe money", but the other side has idealism behind it. That goes a long way.

Clearly, the climate apocalypse is what dominates the media narrative, so if you want to make money tomorrow (not yesterday), you're pushing renewables, not fossils.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by garmaine on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:18PM (#21116959)

The Green New Deal represents a $93 trillion subsidy to renewable energy, if it is enacted. That’s more than comparable.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by beat on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:24PM (#21117023)

Where are you getting this from? We don't have a Green New Deal. We don't have a firmed-up bill presented in Congress, even. And how is the number you offered calculated, and by whom? Because it reeks of partisanship.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by garmaine on Monday September 30, 2019 @02:17PM (#21118155)

It’s the only estimate I know of. Here’s a critical look at it: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/how-much-will-the-green-ne...

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by beat on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:04PM (#21118617)

Seems to me that link more or less debunks the $93T estimate as partisan bullshit, which is what I expected it to be.

To put it in perspective, the GDP of the US is currently about $19T, so they're saying the Green New Deal would cost 100% of the GDP for five straight years. This seems... exaggerated.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by gridlockd on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:04PM (#21119186)

> This seems... exaggerated.

Not if you understand MMT and its proponents. AOC believes that every dollar spent by the government on infrastructure magically turns into five dollars of economic growth, so she's willing to go into deep debt to make it happen.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by beat on Monday September 30, 2019 @04:37PM (#21119441)

Now that definitely sounds like partisan nonsense.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by gridlockd on Monday September 30, 2019 @08:15PM (#21120861)

Perhaps, but it's true. AOC is a proponent of MMT[1] and has made that "five dollars for every one dollar spent" argument[2].

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-e...

[2] I can't find the source for this one right now, but it was in a video interview regarding the green new deal, right around when it was announced.

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Re:What Kind of Problem Is Climate Change? by garmaine on Monday September 30, 2019 @09:55PM (#21121300)

Adding on to this, the five dollars for every dollar spent makes sense in some contexts. It’s a key factor in support of federally funded basic research like NASA, NSF, DARPA, etc. I actually believe this based on the reports I’ve seen for NASA spin offs.

But what AOC is talking about is not basic research, which has a multiplicative effect because it opens up new technologies, new products, and new industries. A New Deal is work for works sake, and economically substitutive... so the return is actually less than a dollar for every dollar spent.

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